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To: Cvengr
"My impression is that the power comes from Christ and garnered via the faith of others, but nonetheless He is the power which gives reason for fallen spirits to depart from possessions of other persons. The issue isn't as superstitious, as much as it is supernatural."

And your impressions are generally correct. I've had it satisfactorily explained to me by an old Franciscan as follows...

Faith is the suspension of logic...To truly believe that a man can have nails pounded through his wrists and ankles, after have been severely lashed, bled severely from the head as the result of of a helmet of thorns, then woke up three days later, as though nothing is wrong, is to suspend logic. GOD has blessed us with logic, which in a sense, seperates us from the animals, and makes us unique as humans. In comprehending HIS greatness, we must be able to suspend that logic, and therefore, there are signs, symbols, and miracles, that help us to do so. The Catholic Church is rife with symbology.

9 posted on 03/03/2002 12:12:22 PM PST by Joe 6-pack
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To: Joe 6-pack
Your quotes intrique me. I enjoy epimtemology, so I'd like to share a few conclusions I've found upon those studies. I probably come across as an a**hole, though not intended,...(isn't that how they always come across?) ... nor do I wish to be argumentative, but I enjoy studying these things a bit as I've found the basic definitions and expression of these phrases and vocabulary to incredibly influence the explicit meanings communicated by language to express true meanings.

I've found the definition of faith is a tough one. The one the Franciscan provides---"Faith is the suspension of logic..." is a bit simplistic IMHO. Logic and faith are different things. Animals have the ability to perceive, generate emotion, act with simple logical patterns. Man's acceptance of logic may be able to associate meaning, naming and identity to language and deduce and induce logical conclusions. But faith also remains a separate topic.

Some associate faith akin to a set of premises from which logic may operate to provide conclusive meaningful positions.

It has been cast alongside other epistemilogical topics such as intuition, belief, psychological certainty, perception, etc. Although these are also discernible topics referenced in many classical arguments on epistemology of the past 3000 years or so.

..To truly believe that a man can have nails pounded through his wrists and ankles, after have been severely lashed, bled severely from the head as the result of of a helmet of thorns, then woke up three days later, as though nothing is wrong, is to suspend logic.

In some cases ,one might suspend logic in the acceptance of these truths, but the events as provided appear to be more of a manifest incarnation of Deity. An incredible display for man to grasp through physical perception that Christ did indeed defeat the believed permanence of death. Christ's death on the cross, the witness of that event is clearly material, carnal, bodily, perceptual combined with logical rigidity. His rising on the third day, again was put to the physical test of having to remove a large stone, pass guards whose lives were at stake if they failed in their duties, and reported by those most surprised by its occurance. Again, their reports were not so much based upon suspension of logic, but adament reporting of their testimony to observed events. The acceptance of the reports and the historicity of the events also may be based purely upon the logical conclusions and observations of human behavior in the reporting. Faith, though, perhaps also deals with a personal recognition and acceptance of those things external from us which we recognize to have meaning and substance.

"GOD has blessed us with logic, which in a sense, seperates us from the animals, and makes us unique as humans. In comprehending HIS greatness, we must be able to suspend that logic, and therefore, there are signs, symbols, and miracles, that help us to do so. "

Agreed that we have been blessed with logic or reason, (perhaps some more than others...;^)..) But in comprehending His greatness, logic frequently helps for us to understand His image. Faith need not suspend logic as it is a different thing entirely. Additionally, love is referenced in Scripture to be even more powerful than implements of the law,...perhaps also inclusive of logic.

The Catholic Church is rife with symbology. agreed

Some other epistemilogical topics which have import upon such studies include: Meaning, Truth, Intuition, Belief, Psychological Certainty, Logic, Memory, Perception, Induction, Deduction, Naming, Identity, Continuity, Universalism, Justification, Validity, Insight, and Faith.

Consider the reports of the resurrection. They are nearly always based upon rigorous reporting of physical events. So when a surprising or unexpected event transpires, any number or combination of these topics are frequently called into question regarding the occurance. Similarly the supernatural in general, is likewise called into question. In some cases of fraud or false testimony or even mistaken perceptions, some other combination of 'known' basis are given more credance than the others. Frequently, in first hand studies of the supernatural, the issues may even be more convoluted.

11 posted on 03/03/2002 1:31:25 PM PST by Cvengr
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