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To: RnMomof7; ShadowAce; xzins
I have been consistent that God's grace is the sole factor in all salvations.

With all due respect, you cannot point to where we've said God's grace didn't draw us. We believe it is that very grace that gives us the will to choose. For you to insinuate otherwise is a gross representation of the Wesley doctrine and you know it - from experience and from everything we've posted here.

My comment regarding doc's presentation on 1 Corinthians 2:14 went back to your statement that "repentance is the first step." Jerry and O.P. may comment if they would like, but doc clearly stated to me that the verse implies we must be "born again" before repentance. We went back and forth on that for multiple posts.

969 posted on 03/01/2002 11:51:19 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: Ward Smythe
Ward you are absolutely correct. Calvinism teaches that you must be born again before you repent before you even believe.

Actually, it's consistent with the calvinist version of election: since God chooses for you instead of you choosing for yourself, then it might as well be there as anywhere else.

971 posted on 03/01/2002 11:55:15 AM PST by xzins
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To: Ward Smythe
"gives us the will to chose"...I have a problem with that---only Christ will save us---will/religion(works) is a liability!

"They were very strenuous in contending for this life of religious suspense, sad and dismal as it must be; because conscious justification, such as Luther contended for, shut out priesthood and penance; giving a man the joy of true liberty and divine fellowship at once, without the intervention of another party or the delay of an hour. This conscious justification started the man upon a happy life, because relieved from the burden of doubt and the gloom of uncertainty; it made his religion bright and tranquil, because springing so sweetly from the certainty of his reconciliation to God; it delivered him from the cruel suspense and undefined fears which the want of assurance carries always with it; it rescued him from all temptations to self-righteousness, because not arising from any good thing in himself; it preserved him from pride and presumption, because it kept him from trying to magnify his own goodness in order to extract assurance out of it; it drew him away from self to Christ, from what he was doing to what Christ had done; thus making Christ, not self, the basis and the center of his new being; it made him more and more dissatisfied with self, and all that self contained, but more and more satisfied with Jesus and His fullness; it taught him to rest his confidence towards God, not on his satisfaction with self, not on the development of his own holiness, not on the amount of his graces and prayers and doings, but simply on the completed work of Him in whom God is well pleased."

(link on the above)

972 posted on 03/01/2002 11:58:27 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: Ward Smythe
As I tried to point out we are dealing with two different definitions for Born Again. Calvinists do not take born again to mean saved..you are born again BEFORE you can repent and be saved

Born again is getting a new beating heart

976 posted on 03/01/2002 12:09:30 PM PST by RnMomof7
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