U.S. soldier shot to death in exercise

MSNBC ^ | Feb. 24 | MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS

[mdittmar]

A Fort Bragg soldier taking part in an exercise off the base was killed and another was injured in a shooting after a sheriff’s deputy stopped them on a rural road, authorities said.

The soldiers were taking part in a role-playing exercise that is part of the Special Forces Qualification Course, according to a statement from the Moore County Sheriff’s Department.

The soldiers were carrying weapons, but they do not carry live ammunition during the exercise, Maj. Richard Patterson of the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School told The Fayetteville Observer.

“The two soldiers were not in uniform. For various scenarios within the exercise, that’s not uncommon,” said a Special Forces spokesman. “They were going out to do reconnaissance of a target that was going to be used for a future mission in the exercise,” the spokesman said.

The newspaper reported that the soldiers were in a vehicle that was stopped by Deputy Randall Butler on a rural road northwest of Robbins on Saturday afternoon. Robbins is about 25 miles from the Fort Bragg reservation.

The sheriff’s department would not comment on why Butler stopped the vehicle or why he drew his weapon. No charges had been filed Sunday. Butler was placed on administrative leave with pay.

Sheriff Frank Johnson was out of town and couldn’t be reached by telephone Sunday.

UNDER INVESTIGATION

The soldiers were in a vehicle driven by a civilian who was playing the role of a resident of a fictitious country, Patterson said. He wouldn’t discuss further details of the incident because it was being investigated by the State Bureau of Investigation and the Army.

“It was definitely a misunderstanding, but we’re still looking at the procedures and actions taken. We can’t lay blame on anyone right now,” said the Special Forces spokesman. The exercise, known as “Robin Sage,” is the 19-day final exam of the Special Forces Qualification Course. It tests skills in survival, tactics and dealing with people, as well as judgment, decision-making and ethics.

In previous Robin Sage sessions, law enforcement officials have helped the military by setting up road blocks. There was no immediate indication whether Butler was helping with Saturday’s exercise.

Patterson said the names of the dead and wounded soldiers wouldn’t be released until their relatives were notified.

The wounded soldier was listed in serious condition at FirstHealth Moore Regional Hospital in Pinehurst, according to the sheriff’s department.

[rbmillerjr]

on mixing the military and civis in training....yes, but i think most peoples fear are for the civis....and there should be none as the milis dont carry arms...face it - it was a freak unfortunate accident where the policeman didnt know what was going on, he should have. There is a miscommunication between the military and the police......a trajedy for all 3 involved.

[DoughtyOne]

I would agree with the tragic aspects of this. Thanks for the comments. Take it easy.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Ain't got no words for this one. None good anyway.

[LouD]

I'm all for real-life training, but fail to see how some traffic stop role playing would have ANY kind of impact on the SF's job in Afghanistan.

Special Operations troops operate behind the lines. They are routinely called upon to negotiate checkpoints, routine stops by security forces, etc.

[LouD]

I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge in the area you're addressing.

You'd be guessing incorrectly. There is a small minority of Freepers who are quick to blame the military for any perceived mistake, irregardless of whether or not they have any expertise upon which to base that perception. Your "feeling" that they ought not to be conductiong this type of training exhibits exactly this kind of thinking. You clearly do not understand the mission of special ops troops or the purpose of Robin Sage.

The fact is, here in the real world, how you "feel" about anything matters not a whit. Don't bother us with your feelings, give us reasoned, informed thought - or just spare us the bandwidth.

[LouD]

Running this kind of drill, where uninvolved civilians can get hurt and blunders like this can happen is either unprofessional macho bullshit or simple stupidity.

This exercise has been running in this location since before the inception of Special Forces. I am hardpressed to believe that the police officer was not aware that an exercise was in progress. If that is the case, then there was a monumental screwup in communications. But I do not believe that it was the fault of the SF candidates, who clearly thought they were still role-playing.

[LouD]

And you can't convince me that our military is going to learn anything about third world cities by playing on the streets of Cincinatti, Houston or Monterey.

Yup - Go with your feelings, not logic.

Just how do you suppose our SF guys managed to take over an entire country in a matter of weeks? If you ask them, they'll tell you its because of training - Exactly the kind of training that was being conducted here.

If you'd like to develop a reasoned and informed opinion on the topic, I would suggest the cable show "On The Inside" which did an hour long show devoted to Robin Sage.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks Lou, I've always put a lot of stock in the "if you don't believe as I do you must be an idiot" form of logic. Even though you disagree with me, I think we can spare the bandwidth, but thanks for the concern.

[LouD]

Under the premise of Posse Comitatus they don't.

Wrong again. This is training. The military is not operating against civilians. They are operating against other military units. Civilians assist in the role-playing to add realism to the exercise. A team might hide out in a farmer's barn, and worry about whether the farmer will rat them out at the first opportunity - just like in real life. People report sitings of SF troopers, just like in real life. They are not the target of a military operation, they are role players in a fictional scenario designed and proven over its long history to provide invaluable training to guys who will go on to lay their lives on the line for you.

Now tell me again how they don't deserve whatever edge their demonstrably successful training program has given them, as they risk their lives, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, while you sit here on your ass and criticize their training practices.

[DoughtyOne]

Let me see if I have this right Lou. Military members couldn't fulfill these functions operating on a military setup that looks like a city because I wouldn't be real. But using city streets with civilians playing rolls is real. Thanks Lou, that's so clear even you don't know what you just said.

[LouD]

I've always put a lot of stock in the "if you don't believe as I do you must be an idiot" form of logic.

I've given you pragmatic reasons why Robin Sage is conducted the way it is. You've given me your feelings, a spurious citation of posse comitatus, and some quasi-tin foil hat ranting about the military.

Reasoned, informed debate trumps unsupported feelings every time.

[DoughtyOne]

Now tell me again how they don't deserve whatever edge their demonstrably successful training program has given them, as they risk their lives, in Afghanistan and elsewhere, while you sit here on your ass and criticize their training practices.

If you wish to believe that mock invasions of Cincinatti, Houston and Monterey are the real reason our troops are successful in Afghanistan, go ahead. I don't mind. As for me denying them the training they deserve, I don't believe I'm doing that at all. However I do find it interesting what level you'll stoop to in the effort to shame me into accepting shameful arguements.

I don't blame the military for everything. Actually, these policies are approved far above the military level, so why would I blame them for this? I think it's a poor policy and I've said so.

[DoughtyOne]

Lou, you're a legend in your own mind. You've twisted most of what I've said to suit your own shallow logic on this. So far the best arguement you've made is that I hate the military and wish to deny them proper training. Who don't you throw in a few more tin foil arguements to bolster your vacant rants, add in a few "you must be a leftist democrats" to sooth your hurt feelings and we'll just let this hang.

[LouD]

Let me see if I have this right Lou. Military members couldn't fulfill these functions operating on a military setup that looks like a city because I wouldn't be real. But using city streets with civilians playing rolls (sic) is real.

This exercise takes place over five counties. There are thousands of civilians with whom they can interact. Children, dogs, sympathetic farmers, partisans, hostile locals who will turn them in. They all live in their homes, and go about their lives, interacting as civilians would do in a real theater of operations. They are not actors temporarily inhabiting a Hollywood set. All this is played out over a huge geographic area. They do conduct exercises on military posts - many of them, in fact. But they are by necessity constrained by geography and resources. The Robin Sage experience could not be duplicated on a military installation, at any price.

[LouD]

If you wish to believe that mock invasions of Cincinatti, Houston and Monterey are the real reason our troops are successful in Afghanistan, go ahead.

We're not talking about any of those places - We're talking about Robin Sage. And yes, I do believe that our success in Afghanistan is directly attributable to the training of our SF troops in exercises like Robin Sage.

[Archaeus]

You don't suppose the cop infringed on the soldiers right to keep and bear arms?

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your comments Lou. Sorry we couldn't agree this time.

[sneakypete]

And you can't convince me that our military is going to learn anything about third world cities by playing on the streets of Cincinatti, Houston or Monterey.

I doubt that anybody can convince you of anything. You think you already know everything,and you have a closed mind.

[sneakypete]

you are but one of millions, many of whom don't even know how to spell "constitution."

Careful there,you are speaking to a expert on the Constitution!

[sneakypete]

Under the premise of Posse Comitatus they don't.

Wrong,yet again. Posse Comitatus does NOT apply in this case. Why don't you just log-off and go watch "Red Dawn" again,or read the collected foreign policy wisdom of Pat Buchannan? You'll be much happier.