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To: Southack
The author highlighted "could" to mock just how improbable that was, even given 17 Billion years of trying.

I do believe you are grasping at straws. This is a ridiculously weak comeback to a rather decisive point I made. When you start referencing math texts, I'll listen.

327 posted on 03/04/2002 10:50:58 PM PST by tortoise
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To: tortoise
"I do believe you are grasping at straws. This is a ridiculously weak comeback to a rather decisive point I made. When you start referencing math texts, I'll listen."

Post #310 is an on-line mathematical text. It conclusively debunks your wild-eyed claims with math. The numbers, charts, and equations are included in that link.

Go ahead, post the final probability number at the end of that text just to show that you actually read it. Go ahead and admit just how low the chances are of getting even the first sentence of Hamlet in 17 Billion years of randomness.

Come on, this is fun! I've got you totally down and out, and I LOVE seeing you drag this out. Perhaps we can go ANOTHER 350 posts with me just banging on your now disproven claims by citing over and over again the very math that debunks your folklore!

329 posted on 03/04/2002 10:58:08 PM PST by Southack
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To: tortoise
Hey! Where did you go?! This is way too much fun for you to flee yet! Come on, dance around and try to deny the math some more!

Let's all read the link in Post #310 again just to see once again the math that proves you wrong.

Then when we're done, let's do it again!

331 posted on 03/04/2002 11:03:54 PM PST by Southack
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To: tortoise
(from the link in Post #310)

Okay, now for the moment of truth. We know how many possible different lines can be produced, hence how likely it is for us to get the right one at random (because only one is right). We can calculate the chances of getting the quote in a year most easily by calculating the chances of missing on every attempt: the chances of getting the quote will be 100% minus the chances of missing on every attempt. I need a really amazingly precise calculator to do this because the chances of missing are so close to 100% that most calculators will round it off to 100%. The calculation is as follows.

probability of missing on one attempt = 1 - 1/(32^41)
...of missing for a minute straight = (1 - 1/(32^41)) ^ 60
...of missing for an hour straight = ((1 - 1/(32^41)) ^ 60) ^ 60
...of missing for a day straight = (((1 - 1/(32^41)) ^ 60) ^ 60) ^ 24
...for a year straight = ((((1 - 1/(32^41)) ^ 60) ^ 60) ^ 24) ^ 365
If you have access to Unix, you can calculate this with the dc command, but be warned that it may take quite a while to calculate and annoy other users because the computer is so slow. Use of the nice command is suggested. The syntax, should you care to try, is as follows. Type the dc command, then type the following lines.

99k
1 1 32 41 ^ / - 60 ^ 60 ^ 24 ^ 365 ^
p

The figure that is eventually printed will be the probability (expressed as a value between zero and one) of our monkey not typing our little phrase from Hamlet in the space of one year's worth of continuous attempts. The answer that it prints looks like this:
0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999386721844366784484760952487499968756116464000
Notice all the nines? Even to fifty or more significant figures, this reads 100%. Okay, so realistically, there is no way that our monkey can do its job in a year. Maybe we should start talking centuries? Millenia? As I understand it, common scientific wisdom suggests that the universe is about 15 billion years old (although they may have revised their dating since I last heard about it). We can easily extend our current figure of one year to count many years. Our calculator will be much faster if we break the calculation down to powers of two and just use the "square" operation, so let's choose a nice even power of two like 2^34, which is about 17 billion (17,179,869,184 to be precise). The new figure is:

0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999989463961512816564762914005246488858434168051444149065728

The chances of failure are still essentially 100%, even after 2^34 years. Hmmm. It doesn't look like were are going to get very far with this, but just for the heck of it, let's see if we are any better off with a lot of monkeys. Let's not hold back here -- I hypothesize 17 billion galaxies, each containing 17 billion habitable planets, each planet with 17 billion monkeys each typing away and producing one line per second for 17 billion years. What are the chances of the phrase "TO BE OR NOT TO BE, THAT IS THE QUESTION." not being included in the output?

0.999999999999946575937950778196079485682838665648264132188104299326596142975867879656916416973433628

I'd bet money on that. It's about 99.999999999995% sure that they would fail to produce the sentence. Are you astounded? It's such a trivial requirement, right? Just one puny sentence. And yet the figures keep coming up "impossible". Where have we made a mistake? We have fallen into the same trap as the politician who was the subject of my joke, way back up there. We have failed to appreciate the sheer magnitude of the problem. Let's look at it one more time.

The number of 41-character strings that are possible with a 32-character alphabet is 32^41. According to dc, this value is as follows.

51422017416287688817342786954917203280710495801049370729644032

In case you don't feel like counting, this value is 62 digits long. In our hypothesising above, we imagined 17 billion galaxies, each with 17 billion planets, each with 17 billion monkeys, each of which was producing a line of text per second for 17 billion years. How many lines of text did we wind up producing in this experiment? The math is as follows:

2^34 * 2^34 * 2^34 * 2^34 * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60

And the answer is as follows:
2747173049143991138247931294711870033017962496000

Once again, in case you don't feel like counting, the answer is 49 digits long. Now, there is no guarantee that our monkeys are going to type something different every time, but even if we managed to rig up the experiment so that they never tried the same thing twice, they have still only produced 1/18,718,157,355,362 of the possible alternatives. The denominator in that fraction is 14 digits long, by the way. It's a figure that's vastly bigger than anything you would come across in the real world. Is it any wonder, in light of that, that it is so damn hard to get the right answer by accident?

332 posted on 03/04/2002 11:11:37 PM PST by Southack
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To: tortoise
Hey! Where did you go?!

Stick around! This is just starting to get fun!

333 posted on 03/04/2002 11:15:28 PM PST by Southack
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