Posted on 02/18/2002 11:03:34 AM PST by Sam_Watkins
Estimated 20,000 Orthodox Jews demonstrating on Tuesday February 12th, in front of the Israeli Consulate in New York City, organized by the Central Rabbinical Congress of USA and Canada, to voice their opposition to the existence of the state of Israel, their suppression of religion and brutal treatment of religious people.
The posters read as follows: [L-R] "Israel" dos not represent world Jewry
Rabbinical leaders fought Zionism since its inception
Authentic Rabbis always opposed Zionism and the State of Israel
Zionism have no right to rule over any part of the holy land
No doubt! Herzl's dream was a catastrophe for Jews
Zionism stole the name of Jews
"Israel" dos not represent world Jewry
Jews mourn 53 years existence of "Israel"
True Jews will never recognize Israel
Torah Jewry is united against Zionism & the State of Israel
Zionist ideology opposes the Creator
Oh No! Zionism will never succeed
We are against "Israel" because we are Jews
Zionism and Judaism are extreme opposites
Background sign: Israeli government: stop oppressing religious Jewry in the State of Israel
You're right. LOL. And if you did follow these threads through the years you would know that many people have called Muslims sub-humans or lice (and their children nits when they are killed - you know you gotta get rid of the nits too if you want to eliminate the lice problem). Most don't do this, but some have. You seem to want to make a big deal out of one little sentence in an entire thread. Why?
At some point, it has to stop. Those who are participating in the nastiness should stop complaining about it. It wouldn't hurt for everyone to work on their communication skills either. ME INCLUDED! If you mean to say something, then say what you mean, not something else. Then be prepared for the responses you may get.
Goodnight.
Wasn't this your position Montagu? Remember when you were advocating cleansing all Islamics from the U.S. and I asked you whether you'd like a big oven to do it or drive them off a cliff?
In early Zionist literature (pre-1948), "Palestinian" always means Jews who lived there before the Zionist movement. Palestinian Arabs are simply called Arabs.
Before there was a State of Israel, it was always referred to as "Palestine", and many rank-and-file Zionists were surprised by the new name.
To: Ms. AntiFeminaziSuch arguments would be much more powerful and relevant if you saved them for when such practices as calling them subhuman are employed, or provide a link back to a place where such arguments were made by the people you are debating. Otherwise, it seems instigative.Yes, and my reference was specifically a jab at those who persist in calling Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims "subhuman animals".
[snip]
My point was that ALL nations -- Jewish or otherwise -- are to be held to the same universal standards of human regard. This is an impossibility if folks persist in demonizing each other as subhuman.Had I gone farther, I might have pointed out that excusing one's actions on the express basis of "tit for tat" when dealing with folks one clearly regards as morally deficient and hopeless unjust can ONLY mean that one is lowering themselves to that level.
True, it was a bit over the top. My apologies to all.
Excoriating the entire ball of wax as a fight over "fairy tales" is very likely exactly the ultimate objective intended by militant atheists who contrived and sustain this sorry state of affairs.
Good point.
Well, now see ... that is one of the most bothersome aspects of MAF's crusade to out me as a racist bigot interested only in ratcheting the vile nature of these threads.
If this forum hadn't been deluged with bloodthirsty, hateful, repugnant language -- Jim himself, even, refusing to warm to the idea of coming down hard on Muslim, as well as Mormon, bashing -- it would be one thing.
Instead, as I said, were I to start linking to every instance of Arab-bashing and dehumanization of Muslims into dogs I'd hardly be pressed to look first (or only) in the Israel threads these days.
Alouette's question was a simple one. Should Israel be held to a higher standard somehow?
Perhaps my answer should have been something along the lines of: You're damn right the Israelis should be held to a higher standard than terrorist-harboring, radicalized liars, thieves and thugs or the "subhuman dogs" so many around here feel perfectly justified in "exterminating" off the face of the planet.
If, for no other reason, than -- just as every action of the State of Israel is excused at the risk of seeming "anti-Semitic" -- then every action of the State of Israel must needs be an inherently "Jewish" action.
Right?
I don't have time for arguments whose primary thrust is purely subjective and a matter of personal interpretation of what I said or why I said it REGARDLESS of my having taken the time to spell it out for you.
If your concerned about my inability to contain my racist bigotry and my baiting of folks with inflammatory language on these threads ... by all means, hit the abuse button.
Cheers Tony
If you are sincerely interested in seeing what she has done to maintain a civilized dialogue on these highly emotional threads, just do a quick search of posts by her on Israel and/or the Middle East.
Similarly, I see no indication of her stating or hinting that you are a racist or a bigot. However, I see you making a rather bizarre statement:
If your concerned about my inability to contain my racist bigotry and my baiting of folks with inflammatory language on these threads ...That seems to me to be the same sort of thing- injecting something into a discussion that wasn't there before. That seems strange to me. Where did that come from? Are you suggesting that MAF was saying you are a bigot? If so, can you give anything to back that up?
Is my asking that somehow transmorgifying myself into a crusader as well?
Perhaps my answer should have been something along the lines of: You're damn right the Israelis should be held to a higher standard than terrorist-harboring, radicalized liars, thieves and thugs or the "subhuman dogs" so many around here feel perfectly justified in "exterminating" off the face of the planet.Maybe. But then again, I think that the time and place to make those arguments is when such rhetoric is employed. From your posts, it is clear you see it all over the place, all the time. Wouldn't it make more sense to make your arguments there, when you see them, than on a thread where they are not? I think that is MAF's point, and I happen to agree with her.
Looking forward to having both of you stick around to keep me -- and others -- on the high road in the future.
Wrong.
It seems to me that it is awfully convenient for you to say such rhetoric doesn't exist and blame those who complain as making a big deal out of it when you have admitted you haven't seen the rhetoric in question.
I have been called a "Jew Hater" for raising legitimate criticisms of Sharon and Israeli tactics.
Anyone who brings up the USS Liberty (a case where the Israeli's attacked and murdered a US ship and claimed later that they didn't know it was a US ship shich has since been proven to be an outright lie) is accused of being anti-Semetic.
Never mind that the Israeli pilots had mentioned the US Flag on several occassions during the attack in communications intercepted by the NSA and that they were straffing lifeboats - murdering our soldiers in cold blood.
I'm all for folks' keeping each other honest on the boards. I felt I explained sufficiently my use of what have become altoghter common terms for Muslims ... outside, much less inside, the Israel threads.
(Part of the way you can tell others knew exactly what I was doing is how MAF was the only to cry foul. Trust me, no one on these threads is shy about speaking up when they have an opinion on another poster's being inflammatory or disengenuous. Regards.)
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