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Doc, your arguments are weak. You continue to say that we don't understand what calvinism "really" means as opposed to what it says. I simply don't buy a doctrine that explains away something as straightforward, clear and forthright as "whosoever will may come."

I stand by what I said. You misrepresented Calvinism repeatedly in your post. I pointed this out to you every time. And you are still ignoring what I did say in my response.

You see, your conception of the gospel is that Calvinism is not true. That is your presupposition. You think the God of the Calvinists is some kind of unfair monster. You learned this perspective from the same spirit who misled Wesley. You are judging God by your own Adamic-Satanic notions as to what fairness is.

Whitefield was right. Wesley was wrong. Wesley didn't understand any pivotally important thing which Whitefield tried to tell them.

How could that be? Read 1 Corinthians 3. Carnality is murderous. It can make sinners stupidly unteachable. (This is why "Mr. Love" exploded at Whitefield, ignored everything Whitefield said, and started his OWN MOVEMENT. That was a bad idea. The Church is still suffering from Wesley's hypocritically uncharitable attitude. I respectfully submit that Wesleyan's incredibly bad attitude has infested you as a Wesleyan.)

Calvinism DOES teach "not just anyone may come."

No, Calvinism does NOT teach that. Read Spurgeon.

You need to quit making these accusations a la carnal Mr. Wesley. I warned you about this, but to no avail. You don't understand our position. (And you won't heed that warning.)

You might not strain at swallowing that, but a thinking person has to step back when a verse gets twisted upside-down like that.

I have twisted nothing "upside down" like that. Calvinists do believe in the free offer of the gospel. We present it with tremendous energy. Spurgeon makes most of today's Arminians seem cold by comparison.

You ALSO say that the Bible DOES NOT say "God does not show favoritism." The bible most certainly does. Check out Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

The KJV translation is the accurate one in this case. Your idea of "God does not show favoritism" should be rendered as "God is not a respecter of persons."

Why is this a better translation? First of all, it's because God obviously does show favoritism. But He is not a respecter of persons.

To show you what I mean, I would point out that God picked Abraham and a peculiar lineage of Abraham's descendants--i.e., the Hebrews--and refused to reveal Himself to the world as a whole. This is favoritism on an enormous scale. But it was not because God was a respecter of persons. He didn't choose Abraham or Abraham's descendants because He respected them. He favored them with Truth and faith therein because He is SOVEREIGN. This is precisely why He refused to give saving Truth to others. It has nothing to do with the Jews being noble.

Now, when God decided to abandon the very real favoritism which He had shown to the national Hebrews, He used his apostle to emphasize that no one has any excuse for saying "Well, God won't save me because I don't meet the criteria of deservedness."

The Calvinist would respond to that sinner by asserting that there is no such thing as deservedness. God is not a respecter of persons. God's election, although a matter of His sovereign favor (!), does not follow the stupid criteria which Adamic-Satanic sinners would be inclined to put forth.

And since God had changed his approach to include Gentile salvation, it was important in Acts 10 for sinners to be made aware of the fact that He is not a respecter of a person's outer presentation of religious correctness. (The Greek word for "respecter of persons" is actually "acceptor of the countenance, of the surface appearance.") God accepts people of true faith, not people of particular national type or high social position or special religiosity. These things do not impress Him--at all.

The doctrine of election has nothing to do with any of the things which might concern strictly carnal sinners. God does not overlook a person of faith and save a person of special national heritage or important social position or impressive religiosity. ALL persons who repent and believe the gospel are saved. This is the important message of the gospel's universality, of its freeness. "Whosoever will may come."

The question of who winds up getting saving faith within the distribution of peoples across the globe is a different question. God does favor some and not others. And it has nothing to do with respect, because that would speak of pre-conversion deservedness. It has to do with the sovereignty of God's grace.

And if you think that God elects based on foreseeing that such-and-such a person would believe the gospel, you'd better re-think that. God's foreknowledge is not merely precognitive. If you will read 1 Corinthians 2:14 honestly, you will discover that it proves my entire position. God does favor some people with a spirit of receptiveness to the Truth. It is a wonderfully strange display of His sovereignty. And His sovereignty is part of His glory, a glory which you have not yet seen clearly.

You DO fall back again and again on QUESTIONING the salvation of those who disagree with your theology. I can't tell if that's a "debating technique" or a self-esteem issue, but it's inappropriate.

You are being too naive, brother. I say that's inappropriate. Arminianism is the Lie of Eden. You just haven't noticed that.

Most churchgoers really are lost.

We are told to work out our "own" salvation with fear and trembling. It is a weighty thing.

That's one of the Calvinists' favorite verses.

I stand and fall, not to you, but to the Lord.

Good point. But it's not the point of the discussion. I do assume that you are regenerate.

Fortunately, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

That's another one of my favorite verses. It ranks up there with John 3:16 in my theology of God's wonderful grace.

The problem is, a lot of people who claim that they have come to Christ have merely walked an aisle and joined a church. Hypocrisy is an amazing, self-deceiving mess.

Do NOT tell people that every seemingly positive response to the gospel is saving faith. If you disturb them very badly by that warning, it's because they need to be disturbed. The people of true faith will appreciate your warning.

They might also appreciate it if you quote the part of the verse which you left out. The verse actually says "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

That is one of the most strongly Calvinistic verses in the entire Bible. Billy Graham uses it in all of his altar calls. He just never uses the first half of the verse. We Calvinists are right to complain about that, I think!