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T.U.L..I.P. and why I disagree with it
violitional theology | unknown | Ron Hossack

Posted on 02/17/2002 11:35:16 PM PST by fortheDeclaration

T.U.L.I.P. AND WHY I DISAGREE WITH IT By RON HOSSACK

The term "Calvinism" is used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.

Dr. Loraine Boettner in his book, 'The reformed Doctrine of Predestination', says, "The Calvinistic system especially emphasized five distinct doctrines. These are technically known as 'The Five Points of Calvinism.' And they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rests."

Dr. Boettner further says, "The five points may be more easily remembered if they are associated with the word T-U-L-I-P

T - Total Inability; U - Unconditional Election; L - Limited Atonement; I - Irresistible (efficacious) Grace; and P - Perseverance of the Saints." These are the five points of Calvinism.

I have heard people say, "I am a one-point Calvinist, a two-point Calvinist" and so on. Look at each one of these views as taught by Calvin and then see what the Bible has to say on each point. As with any Doctrine, it is no stronger than the foundation upon which it is built and it'll either be built upon sand or the Rock!

I. TOTAL INABILITY

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner could not repent and come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Savior, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ.

The Bible teaches total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it no where teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was (John 5:40),

"You will not come to me, that you might have life." Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you CAN come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you WILL come to Him.

Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem. . how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!" (Matt 23:37).

Here again notice, He did not say, "How often I would have gathered you together, but you COULD not." No. He said, "Ye WOULD not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.

Rev. 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that hearth say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me?" Why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me"?

Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the Bible says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him. . ." But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."

All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Savior. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. (Jn 1:9) Rom. 1:19, 20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the gospel.

So in the final analysis, men GO to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Him - "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Savior is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural. The foundation of this doctrine is very shaky when looked at in light of what the Scriptures say and not what some men have said.

II. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to go to Heaven, while others are elected to go to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.

This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes, Book III, chapter 23,"

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.

This teaching insists that we need not try to win men to the Lord because men cannot be saved unless God has planned for them to be saved. And if God has planned for them to be eternally lost, they will not come to Christ.

There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation - particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Savior Himself would come - and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.

God in His foreknowledge knows who will trust Jesus Christ as Savior, and He has predestined to see that they are justified and glorified. He will keep all those who trust Him and see that they are glorified. But the doctrine that God elected some men to Hell, that they were born to be damned by God's own choice, is a radical heresy not taught anywhere in the Bible.

In the booklet entitled TULIP by Vic Lockman, Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a witness for Him and to practice soul winning. Proverbs 11:30 says,

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that wins souls is wise." Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills for others to go to Hell. NO. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. 2 Pet. 3:9 says that He is

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "I Tim. 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible. Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice?

Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as He chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Savior. John 3:36 says, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on Him."

Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Savior. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Savior.

III. LIMITED ATONEMENT

By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible, and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.

For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "The man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all. . . ." The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Jn 4:42 says, "and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

Again, I John 4:14, "and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

No man will ever look at Jesus and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe."

The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Is. 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.: There are two "ALLS" in this verse. The first "ALL" speaks of the universal fact of sin -

"All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "ALL" speaks of universal atonement - "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "ALL" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers the same crowd that the "ALL" in the last part of that verse covers. If we all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.

Not only did He bear the sins of us all, but the Bible plainly teaches that He died for the whole world. Look at I John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If that isn't plain enough, the Bible says His death was for every man; (Hebrews 2:9)

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN" .

Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . ."

Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

Look at the statements - statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all." John 3:16 has been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me.

Some argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. No. The death of Christ on the cross was sufficient for all, but it is efficient only to those who believe. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross made it possible for every man everywhere to be saved. but only those who believe that He died to pay their sin debt and who trust Him completely fro salvation will be saved.

Again I quote John 3:36, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life. . . ." Everybody is potentially saved, but everybody is not actually saved until he recognizes that he is a sinner, believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the sin debt, rose from the grave on the third day, and trust Him completely for salvation.

The atonement is not limited. It is as universal as sin. Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Isaiah 53:6 states, "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

IV. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE

The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and He let Jesus die for that elect group.

And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace." That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."

Grace means "God's unmerited favor." Grace is an attitude, not a power. If Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in his mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly cooperate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.

Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Prov.29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "OFTEN" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved. . . ." This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often.

But the Bible says he "hardens his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.

Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says, "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes."

Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused. . .but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out His hand and no man regards it?

Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, and they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him.

In Acts 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." So here were people; some of whom had seen Jesus and heard Him preach; others who had heard Peter at Pentecost; others who had heard Stephen and other Spirit-filled men preaching with great power. And what had they done? They were stiff necked and uncircumcised in their heart and ears. That is, they were stubborn and rebellious against God. The Bible plainly says, "They resisted the holy Ghost."

Notice the words of Stephen in verse 51, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Here the Bible teaches that not only were these Jewish leaders resisting the Holy ghost, but that their fathers before them had also resisted the Holy Spirit. Stephen says that all the way from Abraham, through the history of the Jewish nation, down to the time of Christ, unconverted Jews had resisted the Holy Spirit.

God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ. "I would, but ye would not" does not fit the teaching of irresistible grace. So people do resist the Holy Spirit. They do refuse to come to Christ. They do harden their necks. They do refuse when God calls.

That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not force it upon anyone who doesn't want it.

V. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has ever- lasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend upon his perseverance.

I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints' persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved. Perseverance is one thing. Preservation is another. No. The saints do not persevere; they are preserved.

The Bible states in Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. . . ."

First Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4-5 states: "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

The Bible says in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Now that doesn't sound like the PERSEVERANCE of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Father's hand, and they are safe - not because they persevere, but because they are in the Father's hand.

Charles Spurgeon once said, "I do not believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the saints. I believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the Savior." To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

So I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.

There is a belief that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. In his book, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Dr. Loraine Boettner says on page 47, "There are really only three systems which claim to set forth the way of salvation through Christ [And he names them]: "(1) Universalism, that all will be saved. (2) Arminianism, which holds that Christ died equally and indiscriminately for every individual. . ., that saving grace is not necessarily permanent, but those who are loved of God, ransomed by by God, and born of the Holy Spirit may (let God wish and strive ever so much to the contrary) throw away all and perish eternally; and, (3) Calvinism." He continues, "Only two are held by Christians." That is Calvin's position and Arminius' position."

Calvinists would like to make people believe that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. And since the Arminian position does such violence to the grace of God, many preferred to call themselves Calvinists. But a person doesn't have to take either position.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says,

"That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." But I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it. In conclusion, let me say that Calvin and those who followed him claimed to believe and follow the Bible. They claimed to find at least a germ of the Calvinist doctrine in the Scriptures. But a careful student will find that again and again they go beyond the Scripture, and that Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man and depending on fallible logic and frail, human reasoning, with the perversion of some Scriptures, the misuse of others, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures. Calvin did teach many wonderful, true doctrines of Scripture.

It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes.

It is certain that people are saved by grace, and are kept by the power of God. That far Calvinists may well prove their doctrines by Scriptures. but beyond that, Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy.

It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.


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To: hopespringseternal
In Romans 7:9, Paul tells how this worked in his own life: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. "

Paul says he was once alive apart from the law.

I have pointed out in the past that this passage also proves, if the Calvinists are right, that Paul was dead three times.

Hank

361 posted on 02/19/2002 2:11:39 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: fortheDeclaration
I for one never will understand why people debate doctrines that has no bearing on ones salvation and walk with Christ. Do not get me wrong, a few years back I would be throwing my scriptures up too. That was until Jesus asked my one question. The question was how many people are you bring into the kingdom by debating.I guess one can say that one or the other position can cause another man to stumble. But I wonder if we really are debating to bring truth to people and people close to Jesus, or if it is more about pride. I chose the second. Anyways, I just wanted to post this article because I feel it basically has a lot to think about on both sides. An Open Letter To Calvinist Friends
362 posted on 02/19/2002 2:14:28 PM PST by ClimoMike
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To: RnMomof7
Holy cow Woody an other one that denies original sin!

Also con't believe in holy cows, except when I'm in India.

Don't be alarmed. Have a question, though. Do you beleive someone who does not believe Calvinist doctrine, I mean those elements which are strictly Calvinistic, TULIP, if you like, can be saved?

363 posted on 02/19/2002 2:16:35 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: RnMomof7; xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Foreknowledge is predestination.

The very fact that God does foreknow the future in the minutest of details tells us that the future is ABSOLUTELY FIXED.

The God of Providence, the God Who upholds all things by the Word of His Power, is SO POWERFUL that He can maintain perfect control of a universe populated with creatures endued with true free will.

The folks who do not see how this is possible do not grasp the OMINIPOTENCE of the OMINISCIENT God.

Because God is a PLANNING God, a God of self-glorifying PURPOSE, we need to notice that He is executing a plan. And His foreknowledge is more than precognition. It is a planning faculty.

OrthodoxPresbyterian showed this using Augustine's exposition of Matthew 15 on several other threads. No Arminian or Romanist has answered Augustine's argument as to the absolutenss of predestination or as to the nature of foreknowledge as a planning faculty.

I personally prefer to say that God's foreknowledge is determinative. I read Acts 2:23 as essentially equating God's foreknowledge and His determinate counsel.

So, predestination is absolute. And like it or not, the reprobate cannot be saved. Contingency issues are completely beside the point. The reprobate who hears the gospel will not really believe even if he convinces himself that he does. In his depravity, he is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to reject God and His gospel. This is one of the ominous reasons why the Scriptures say that he that believeth not is damned already.

364 posted on 02/19/2002 2:21:33 PM PST by the_doc
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To: CCWoody
And while you are thinking on these things, please explain to me how a baby can go astray from birth, speaking lies if he is not born with a sin nature?

Woody, be honest. When was the last time you heard a newborn baby speaking anything, much less lies?

If you take this verse literally, you have to take it literally. The Psalms are poems and use poetic language. Now you know that, because you know your Bible. You also know that not a single person in the world would believe this verse meant babies speak lies as soon as they are born unless the were already Calvinists.

Hank

365 posted on 02/19/2002 2:23:13 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: the_doc
Nothing of God Himself is left in man after the Fall.

So you don't believe God is omnipresent after all.

In other words, God is everywhere, except for all those little holes, where he isn't, that we call people.

Hank

366 posted on 02/19/2002 2:26:32 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Jerry_M
You compare what you said in #348 to what I said in #345. You have twisted my words. I never made any statement about your "habits".

This is ridiculous.

367 posted on 02/19/2002 2:29:57 PM PST by woollyone
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To: fortheDeclaration
It speaks very truthfully about the TULIP, it is just that Calvinists do not want anyone to know just how unbiblical their system really is!

With all due respect, sir, ... Have you been drinking? Your line of argument shows all the incisiveness of a man who's had a few too many.

PSSSSSSSSST, fellow Reformed believers: They're ON to us! Uh-oh! What are we going to do now that the word is out that our soteriology is UNbiblical? Quick, quick! Think of SOMETHING we can do to go on FOOLING and DECEIVING people!

368 posted on 02/19/2002 2:33:31 PM PST by BenR2
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To: the_doc
The Calvinist maintains that God's foreknowledge is a planning faculty

Doc, I asked this question of woody recently...last week, perhaps.

I asked if God is ABLE to have a new thought. Woody, I believe, said "yes." What do you think?

The word is proegnw which is basically just "before know" or "foreknow." I don't have my library here yet from Oklahoma, but my memory of the word and of Greek says that the "plannning" aspect you mention is by way of YOUR INTERPRETATION and not by way of any necessary TRANSLATION of the Greek word.

In other words, we're dealing with YOUR presupposition, and you say that I'm dealing with MY presupposition. So be it. Dueling presuppositions.

The "law of God written in their hearts...." actual description of God's activity, or symbolic description? In other words, has God (as a literal interpretation would hold) ACTUALLY carved an inscription on their heart? Or has he done SOMETHING to their hearts, at all?

Do you say he has done NOTHING AT ALL to their hearts? If so, what? If not, then how do you account for these words?

369 posted on 02/19/2002 2:35:14 PM PST by xzins
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To: Hank Kerchief;CCWoody
As a mother let me tell you it takes NO time for a baby to figure out if they cry someone will come to see if they are wet or hungry. So they cry when they get bored and cry when they are lonely they "lie" to get mom to come.

By the time they are 2 they are getting good at it and by three that not only lie but they steal..are you a parent??

370 posted on 02/19/2002 2:41:09 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: the_doc
Doc, foreknowledge is not predestination. Nor is it planning. Nor salvation, nor glorification,...etc.

Can God use his foreknowledge as a tool by which to plan. Of course, and he does. Can God use it as means to determine whom to predestine? Yes, and he does. He predestines those whom he has foreknown as believers.

The Gentiles which followed not after righteousness have attained to righteousness even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel which followed after the law of righteousness hath not attained to the law of righteousness, why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at the stumbling stone; which was Jesus Christ. As it is written, Behold I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense; and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

371 posted on 02/19/2002 2:49:21 PM PST by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
As a mother let me tell you it takes NO time for a baby to figure out if they cry someone will come to see if they are wet or hungry. So they cry when they get bored and cry when they are lonely they "lie" to get mom to come.

Now, you know really that's not a fair argument? How many of these non-Calvinists do you think are mothers. None, probably, but since even if they are not Cavinists, they're decent sorts, and you know they aren't going to argue with a mother about mothering.

Just kidding. We've been down this path before, so I'm letting this one go.

God bless!

372 posted on 02/19/2002 2:56:04 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
Say hi to your mom :>)
373 posted on 02/19/2002 3:02:22 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: the_doc
Very nice.
374 posted on 02/19/2002 3:43:15 PM PST by Fifth Business
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To: CCWoody; Ward Smythe; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; Jerry_M
You're right. I should have asked Ward to read my #152.

(#210 works back to #152, and it might be instructive for Ward to notice Hank's refusal to address 1 Corinthians 2:14 in our subsequent exchange, but the key post is #152.)

375 posted on 02/19/2002 4:00:15 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Hank Kerchief
Thanks for your reply. Let me see if I can enumerate a few of our differences and points of agreement. Feel free to correct me.

We disagree on:
1. original sin
2. providence (active controlling of events in human)

Now here are a few points of commonality:
1. belief in God
2. belief that the Bible contains the Word of God

Now here are two areas I'm unclear whether we are in agreement on:
1. all have sinned (you seem to think without law there is no sin)
2. following Christ is the only way to peace with God and everlasting life.

I don't want to categorize you unfairly, but is your theism more of a 'deistic' one?

376 posted on 02/19/2002 4:08:11 PM PST by Fifth Business
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To: Hank Kerchief
WRONG.

God has no fellowship with Belial. God does not indwell lost sinners. They are the abode of demonic powers.

Hank, your Campbellite position has a grossly inadequate view of sin.

377 posted on 02/19/2002 4:10:36 PM PST by the_doc
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To: BenR2
Ha! That was a good way to remind lurkers that we Reformed believers do use the Scriptures faithfully and diligently--which is precisely why some FReepers get so mad at us.

They can't answer our expositions. (See my #152.)

378 posted on 02/19/2002 4:16:25 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Hank Kerchief; the_doc
(#210 works back to #152, and it might be instructive for Ward to notice Hank's refusal to address 1 Corinthians 2:14 in our subsequent exchange, but the key post is #152.) - the_doc

Perhaps he doesn't want to discuss the verse because he completely denies Original Sin:

If you take this verse literally, you have to take it literally. The Psalms are poems and use poetic language. Now you know that, because you know your Bible. You also know that not a single person in the world would believe this verse meant babies speak lies as soon as they are born unless the were already Calvinists. - Hank Kerchief
If you trace this posting back, you will see what I mean.
379 posted on 02/19/2002 4:39:28 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: xzins; JWinNC; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; jude24; newgeezer; matchett-PI; JenB; Jerry_M...
My position fits Acts 13:48. Yours doesn't. My position fits 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5. Yours doesn't.

Besides, if election is based on foreknowledge in the way you have suggested, then why in the world do we have more than forty glorious references in the New Testament to the idea of being elected?

My point is that the apostles where excited to pronounce people as chosen. (And they talked about election a lot. Election is manifestly tied to their understanding of what God's grace is! To say that God just ratifies a wise fellow's choice cheapens the grace of God.)

What I am really saying is that it doesn't make any sense for the apostles to be saying over and over

ISN'T IT WONDERFUL THAT GOD KNEW IN ADVANCE THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE?
ISN'T IT WONDERFUL THAT GOD KNEW IN ADVANCE THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE?
ISN'T IT WONDERFUL THAT GOD KNEW IN ADVANCE THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE?
ISN'T IT WONDERFUL THAT GOD KNEW IN ADVANCE THAT YOU WOULD BELIEVE?
and repeating that about forty more times in the New Testament!

Pardon me, but the only reason why people will believe your position concerning the nature of God's foreknowledge is because they need to repent. Your position only makes superficial sense.

***

Concerning the moral law written in the heart of all natural-born sinners, you have erred in assuming that it was written there by the Spirit of God. It was not.

FWIW, it is not even called the Law of God. See Romans 2:15. It is merely the moral knowledge acquired in the Fall at a TREE with a SNAKE hanging from its boughs.

This writing of the law on the heart is angelically mediated. It is ultimately a demonic phenomenon. (Satan knows the difference between good and evil, of course!)

Regeneration, on the other hand, is mediated by the Spirit of Christ. This is why Jeremiah speaks of the New Covenant as that of the law written on the heart by God.

This is different from what happened in the Fall. In fact, it is the opposite of what happened in the Fall. However, it corresponds to the Fall in the way that the Atonement corresponds in the typology to the Fall. Christ was the Serpent (the Accursed One) hanging from the Tree.

In summary, the Law is written in men's hearts in two different ways. In both cases, it is written there by the spirit of a "serpent" who hung from a "tree."

Remember: God called the Forbidden Tree the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Man became SATANIC in the Fall. Man acquired a foul spirit of moral apprehensions through Adam's disobedience.

Until you grasp this, you will never grasp what we Calvinists are saying. The conscience is ordained by God. But it ain't God. Satan just wants the sinner to think it is. The sinner may think that he has a little piece of God in his soul, but he is just a Christ-hating idolater.

This is why the lost sinner is in unfathomably serious trouble. He has no Spirit to receive the Truth. He hates the Truth. Even his mind is enmity against God.

This is also why we Calvinists stir up such venomous opposition. It's because we are correct. A lot of FReepers are aware of the reality of God, and they are conservative in their morality. They wrongly assume that this amounts to regeneration. But it is no such thing.

380 posted on 02/19/2002 5:30:32 PM PST by the_doc
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