Posted on 02/17/2002 11:35:16 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
I did not dismiss Ezekiel. I affirm it. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Please at least have the honesty of granting me my position. However, I am willing to lay aside the Ezekiel passage until you show that you at least understand my position. As for plain meaning of the scripture and my position, please see #111 on this thread. I assume these are the "fragments" you are talking about. There are 2 questions, please answer them in any way you see fit.
This Calvin's arguement, I agree with it totally.
I love that scripture. We just happen to see it differently. I haven't been able, yet, to reconcile our two views. I can reconcile my view to scripture. I also BELIEVE that your interpretation is also an HONEST approach to scripture.
I don't attribute mal-intent to my calvinist brethren/sistren. (I just think you don't see God's foreknowledge as including/incorporating God's choices.)
If, for instance, you would see God having ALREADY GRANTED HIS YET-TO-BE-CREATED HUMANITY the Gift of Free Choice at the event of his FOREKNOWING all human history, then you would realize that FREE CHOICE dictated every decision for Christ and every decision against Christ that God saw in His Foreknowledge.
And THEN God set time in motion. And then all of those lives and all of those decision became (are becoming) actuality. God's foreknowledge preceded the foundation of the earth and in that era was ANTICIPATORY. God's foreknowledge was REIFIED after the creation of time, universe, everything.
This was John Wesley's argument. It's no small wonder that Wesley and many reformed preachers were friendly acquaintances; not unfriendly ones. In fact, the Evangelical and United Brethren groups, founded by Reformed and Anabaptist pastors, joined with Wesley because they saw how small their differences and how great a potential for reconciling the two views in this understanding of God's gifts of conscience and free choice.
No, that isn't what I was getting at, exactly. So, I will tell exactly what I was getting at, and hope RnMomof7 reads this too, since I was originally addressing her.
The Bible says lust is the source of temptation. It also describes the temptation of Adam and of Christ in the same terms, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life (I John). James explains, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Jas. 1:14&15)
The word lust in the Bible is translated from the Greek word meaning desire, nothing more. The very same word is used about Jesus in this verse translated desire, "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15)
If the Calvinist holds the position that men cannot choose to do right, because all choices are determined by desire (a position which in itself is untennable) or at least, that man's sin is the result of his sinful nature, there is a contradiction in Scripture. Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus was tempted in exactly the same way we are. "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb 4:15) Since James explains that all temptation arises from desire, either Jesus had the same kind of desires we do, from the very same kind of nature, or He was not tempted in all points like as we are.
Now about your question:
Acting out of his native Adamic Wants, does a natural Man ever perform any God-pleasing action whatsoever -- including reaching out to the Son, which pleases the Father? Ever, any, whatsoever?
Could Adam ever perform any God-pleasing action whatsoever? The "native Adamic Wants (sic)" were exactly the same before and after he ate the fruit offered him by Eve. (Have you ever noticed that Adam was not tempted by Satan?) There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Adam's moral nature changing after he ate the fruit. His physical nature changed (he became mortal), and his ability to choose was limited by the perfectly natural affect of accepting a lie ("he that committeth sin is the servant of sin", "what, know ye not to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are, to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness" - may not be exact since from memory...), but nothing about becoming "totally depraved." And there is nothing in the Bible about what we inherit from Adam being changed either. (And, by the way, there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states Adam and Eve did not have children before the fall. Genesis is not exactly chronological, and that is a distinct possiblity.)
So the question cannot be answered as stated by anyone who does not already agree there is a sinful nature.
I hope you see I have real issues with Calvinist teaching, and hope some of my questions and explanation will help some escape what I beleive is a great error. I am not really trying to convince you or anyone to change your minds, and believe most Calvinists are sincere and good men and women, if somewhat stubborn. (A trait I actually admire.) Some are a little too thin-skinned, however. (A trait I do not admire.)
Hank
And it's bad enough to reject Truth, but it's even worse to fight against it .
And do you know what is even worse than that?
You can read about it in Jude 13.
God has reserved his worst punishment ... not for eeeevil unrepentant baby murderers, and the like .... but ...... drum roll .....
God will punish those who SUPPRESS the REVEALED SCRIPTURAL TRUTH and *teach lies* instead, with the blackest darkness forever.
And that is merely a continuation of what they love now. The prefer darkness over light, therefore they will get even more of what they prefer.
Is this your response to what Paul said? (That was Scripture, I presume you know.)
Hank
If I had "written it off," I wouldn't be on this thread. Understanding the positions of others helps me to clarify (or amend) my own positions. Not being able to accept what I see as the logical conclusion is not quite the same as "writing it off."
YES, WE DO!!!!!! Even an act of "kindness" that is not done in Christ's name and with the goal of His glory is sinful. We can only do "good works" through God's grace. You really need to learn the Calvinist position before you set about debunking it. It seems to me that the only experience you have with the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is through snakes like Vance.
From your post #172:
That is true, but the Calvinist must wait to know that he has been really chosen!
How are you sure that you are saved? Because you see God working in your life!! Don't you DARE say that you know you're saved because you believe in Christ and call Him "Lord". That was my point with Matt. 7:21 ("Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.") It is true that belief in Christ is what is required for salvation, but Christ makes it plain that there are people out there with false faith and they will be very surprised on the day of judgement. So you cannot be sure of your salvation because you have said, "Lord, Lord." You will be sure of your salvation because you see the fruit that you bear (which is a gift of grace)("he who does the will of My Father in heaven.")
Now, if a believer knows this, he will know that it is not a matter of preservation but relationship what keeps him saved.
You are correct!! But what is the result of that relationship?
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
If you believe you are in a relationship and you are not bearing any fruit you need some serious introspection. The fifth point says that if you are saved by that relationship, you will bear the fruit of that relationship (you will persevere till the end). THAT'S IT!
The best advice I can give you, if you'll take it, is to put away the theology books and see what the Word of God says about the issue. Don't just look at the verse that seem to support your position; struggle with the difficult ones. The Word of God is effective, Vance isn't.
You haven't.
I agree but Foreknowing something is X .There is a big difference.
If I know that if I drive to church Sundays I will speed because I am late and in the process I will have an accident that will kill someone..and I do nothing to change the circumstances and I have the accident I have caused it to happen . I have predestined it by not changing the time I leave or the route I take or the speed at which I travel.
Foreknowlege is predestination X
But X you are not God (last time I looked :>) You can not change them or their circumstances.
The quote I pasted is directed at those who hold dogmaticly to one side or the other and legalistically pressure others to refuse opposing perspectives. The fruit mentioned in the quote refers to the fruit of your life in tenaciously holding to one particular doctrinal issue. The reason that this is asked for is because too often, those that cling to these divisive doctrines do so at the expense of the unity and love in the body of Christ.
So far, this thread has 290 posts of division in the body. Who is receiving the most glory in this bantering? That is the issue of fruit about which the quote addresses, not whether or not Scripture bears fruit, for we know that God's Word always bears fruit (Heb 4:12; 2Tim 3:16-17).
So, again, I post the quote with an expanded edition...
"Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching."
Help me follow your logic Mom (seriously). So because God did nothing to prevent it (like you did nothing to prevent an accident), millions are destined to eternal damnation (you caused the accident)? I'm pretty sure that's not where you're going, but that seems to be the logical conclusion to your analogy.
The center of Biblical tension, without compromising the clear teaching of Scripture. This is where I choose to remain,
with you, in His grace,
baa
What does it mean to be a part of the growing number of Calvary Chapel Fellowships? There are certain distinctions that cause us to stand out among other evangelical churches. We could point to our shared commitment to systematic Bible teaching or the emphasis upon love that transcends all cultural and ethnic barriers. Calvary Chapels have also been known for focus on worship, featuring contemporary music loyal to the Word of God and the desire of His people to praise their Lord. Without exception, Calvary Chapels have taken a strong stand for a pre-tribulational and pre-millennial view of the second coming of Jesus Christ. We have also expressed a steadfast love and support for the nation of Israel, its right to a historic homeland and its need for the Messiah. But most importantly, Calvary Chapel has been known for striking a balance between extremes on controversial theological issues that have often caused division rather than unity in the body of Christ.
Calvary Chapels have no desire to be divisive nor dogmatic in areas where Bible believers and teachers have disagreed. However, it is important to state as clearly as possible the doctrinal basis of our fellowship and unity with one another, especially in the area of pastoral leadership and teaching. While we welcome believers who disagree with us to our fellowship, we do encourage a measure of doctrinal understanding and unity among our pastors who teach us the truths of God's Word.
Calvary Chapels try to avoid conclusions, terminology, and arguments which are not clearly presented in the Bible. In no area of controversy is this approach more essential than in the long simmering debate between Calvinists and Arminians. In the midst of this heated argument it is easy to ignore or neglect the plain statements of the Bible, or to believe that we have the ability to fully understand the ways of God (Romans 11:33-36). But how tragic it is when we become more concerned with being "right" than being loving. When we discuss the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it is easy to disagree over terms such as "baptism" and "filling" and to miss the blessing and power of God's Spirit in our lives. The way we conduct our debates and express our opinions will sometimes "quench" as well as "grieve" the blessed Spirit who dwells within the believer. In the midst of our arguments over spiritual gifts, we can miss the Biblical admonition to love, which clearly is greater than all the gifts (I Corinthians 12:31 - 14:1) Our desire is to bring believers together in the love and unity of the Holy Spirit. Our focus is on our awesome God, not on ourselves. We are committed to glorifying our Lord in all we say and do.
Perhaps no issue is as important or as potentially divisive as the doctrine of salvation, reflected in the debate between followers of John Calvin (1509-1564) and those of Jacob Hermann (1560-1609), best known by the Latin form of his last name, Arminius. Since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century, Christian churches and leaders have disagreed over such issues as depravity, God's sovereignty, human responsibility, election, predestination, eternal security and the nature and extent of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Although trained in the reformed tradition, Arminius had serious doubts about the doctrine of "sovereign grace" as taught by the followers of John Calvin. He was a pastor of the Reformed congregation in Amsterdam (1588), but during his fifteen years of ministry there, he began to question any of the conclusions of Calvinism. He left the pastorate and became professor of theology at the University of Leyden. It was his series of lectures on election and predestination that led to a violent and tragic controversy. After his death in 1609, his followers developed the Remonstrance of 1610 which outlined the "Five Points of Arminianism." This document was a protest against the doctrines of the Calvinists, and was submitted to the State of Holland. In 1618, a National Synod of the Church was convened in Dort to examine the teachings or Arminius in the light of Scripture. After 154 sessions, lasting seven months, the Five Points of Arminianism were declared to be heretical. After the synod, many of the disciples of Arminius, such as Hugo Grotius, were imprisoned or banished. When John Wesley took up some of the teachings of Arminianism, the movement began to grow, and it affected the Methodist tradition as well as the beliefs of most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.
-----snip-----
3. Calvary Chapel's Perspective
It is not our purpose to take sides on these issues or to divide the body of Jesus Christ over human interpretations of these Biblical truths concerning our salvation. We simply desire to state how we in the Calvary Chapel fellowships understand the Bible's teaching regarding these matters.
1. DEPRAVITY
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
2. ELECTION
We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). We believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His name. Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call) is given to all, but that only a few will accept it. We see this balance throughout scripture. Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." I Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Matthew 22:14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)." God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.
3. ATONEMENT
We believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (I John 2:2; 4:9-10), and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death, and hell (Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-19). We believe that eternal life is a gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18). I Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus, "was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man." The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race.
4. GRACE
We believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness (Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10). Grace gives to us what we do not deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6). We believe that God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18). In John 5:40 we read "And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life." Jesus also said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life." In John 7:37 Jesus said "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink." In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."
Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection. In John 12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye." In Romans 10:21, the apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2 when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." In one of the five warning passages of the book of Hebrews, we read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Clearly, God's grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.
5. PERSEVERANCE
We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). We believe that the promise of Jesus in John 10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." We believe that the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).
But we also are deeply concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? And in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that in fact are not.
Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-10 insists that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and warns us not to be deceived. A list is then given of various kinds of sinful lifestyles with an ending remark that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Similar statements and conclusions are given in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.
Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Colossians 1:22-23 says about Jesus Christ "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of which I, Paul, am made a minister." II Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, He also will deny us." Hebrews 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Can true believers ("brethren") depart from the living God? I Timothy 4:1 says that "in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith." II Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of "a falling away" or an apostasy. II Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable statements: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
It is no wonder that Peter says in I Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 24 - "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."
Maintaining a Bible centered balance in these difficult issues is of great importance. We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers), but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves "Christians." We don't have all the answers to these matters, but we desire to be faithful to the Lord and His word. If we find ourselves basing our view of salvation on the performance and attitudes of people we become discouraged and concerned. But when we keep our eyes on the Lord, and trust in Him alone and in His power, we say with Peter in I Peter 1:3-9:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, whom, having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!
Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.
Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude.
Yours in love,
Chuck Smith
"For the wages of sin is death...."
No sin--no death.
Take care
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.