Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[frodolives]

And good morning to you, too, and all in the Inn.

I will try to avoid "spoiling" for those (Are there any? Apparently) who did not while away their adolesence wrapped between the covers of these books. I must have read them thirty times, put them down for twenty years, just saw the movie, and read it through again. I even love the appendixes (sp? appendi?)Oh, Just wait 'til you get to the part where....No! Never mind!

I imagine Middle Earth in the time of Aragorn's son's reign, Eregion florishing, and trees walking north of Bywater. The story continues on.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think it is great that there are some who are just now reading it... it means that the story still goes on, as you say... There are still new hobbits being born, not just the ones that have lost their covers and gather dust on our shelves.

[fnord]

please to add me to your ping list. Just today finished the entire book and browsed the appendix. Alas, the movie has moved on from my area.

I wish the entire first book had been a 3 hour film; the first chapter does an excellent job of setting up the idyllic life in the Shire. You can sense the innocence soon to be lost, and get just a glimpse of the backbone and courage within the hobbits.

btw, are planning to do a chapter a week, and start the discussion on Saturdays? If so, I will have to schedule my reading, hehe.

[EternalVigilance]

My heart has always drawn me to the simpler things.

Maybe you ARE a hobbit...

;-)

[HairOfTheDog]

A chapter per week was the plan, but Chapter I took less than 24 hours before the guests here began to wander... some chapters may take more time, some less... but these early chapters sort-of continue the same theme, so I think it is OK to continue on. Forgive me for not promising to hold to a schedule...

I am enjoying the detail and time Tolkien gave to developing the hobbit characters and the foreshadowing of the dark times to come before they set out. The film could not reasonably have been expected to do all that... A full 17 years passes between the party and the beginning of the journey... and I think it took Gandalf about two minutes to get our Frodo out the door in the film, although it was hinted that he had traveled far...

More excerpts:

…Frodo began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed to well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges…. He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with the strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire….

…Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning…

...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor...

[Carolina]

Ooooh, Chapter 2. Great! I remember the first time I read LOTR. This chapter got me hooked.

"You have not seen him," Gandalf broke in. [referring to Gollum]

"No, and I don't want to," said Frodo. "I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? No at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement....snip....And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least..."

At first, I was disappointed that this section was transposed to the Mines of Moria. But after subsequent viewings, it has that kind of gut-wrenching impact, so close to Gandalf's fall and hearing Gollum's footsteps.

[DoctorMichael]

TO ALL: Sorry to break in. Old Business........

No one else ever touched the ring except for Frodo and Sam (and Gollum, that is), unless my memory is failing me.......which is entirely possible because it very often does...

Touchers of the Ring in LOTR (To the best of MY knowledge):

1) Bilbo (at beginning of book)

2) Frodo (given to him by Bilbo)

3) Tom Bombadil (Examines it and remains UNCHANGED!!!! by his encounter; which has always bugged me as to what manner of creature HE is)

4) Samwise (takes it when he thinks Frodo is dead by Shelob)

5) Golum (climax scene)

[Buggman]

Another Freeper (and I apologize, but I can't remember who) pointed out that by putting the story of the Last Alliance in the movie's prologue, the movie changed the tone of the book. In the book, the innocent cheeriness of the first chapter is undiluted by any knowledge of the Shadow until the second, giving us a steady progression from light into the darkness that hangs over the rest of the books. In the movie, on the other hand, we have a "light sandwich," with only a brief enjoyment of the ideal life of the Shire placed between the prologue and Gandalf's search for answers.

That's not a criticism of the movie, really, just an observation of the difference a small change in format can make to the tone.

Yours in Truth,

[HairOfTheDog]

A lot of the background from Chapter 2 was moved around to other parts of the story for the film, like all of the history at the beginning of the film... we did not learn about any of that until Chapter 2 or Rivendell. My review posted here from the first time I saw the film complained a bit that the dark forces were brought out so early and vividly in the film. I loved most of all the innocence at the beginning of this story, and the foreshadowing that begins in hints and whispers. Tolkien had a gift for that, but Jackson's way works too... most people would not have been satisfied, I guess to see Frodo and Gandalf sit around that table for two hours and spell it out slowly... though some of us would have.

[Romestamo]

Gandalf can be added to that list. In the book, rather than throwing an envelope containing the ring into the fire, he throws the ring directly (At last we can speak about this without breaking the chapter barrier).

Two other mortals that can be added are Isildur and Déagol (As we learn in Gandalf's summary).

[Romestamo]

Gandalf can be added to that list. In the book, rather than throwing an envelope containing the ring into the fire, he throws the ring directly (At last we can speak about this without breaking the chapter barrier).

Two other mortals that can be added are Isildur and Déagol (As we learn in Gandalf's summary).

[Overtaxed]

Good point... They should not have jumped ahead like that (hobbits are hard to keep on topic)...

Bad Hobbit! (Shamefacedly retreating into a dark corner.)

[Penny1]

That is interesting--they took the story that Gandalf related in Chapter 2 and placed in the very beginning with Galadriel telling the story instead. It does make a huge difference, because in the book the shadow and threat of what is to come creeps slowly onto the idyllic scene. The reader slowly becomes aware of the gravity of the threat, rather than having it presented full-force right at the start. Something that a book can do where a movie can't necessarily present as successfully...

There was an awful lot of care and thought put into how a story is told in a movie setting as opposed to on the printed page. I'm amazed at how well they balanced their faithfulness to the story with the necessity of adapting it to an entirely different medium.

-penny

[Penny1]

Bad Hobbit! (Shamefacedly retreating into a dark corner.)

Better leave some room in that corner for me....and for the dozen others that "broke the rules" as well... ;)

Party in the corner!!!!!!
< veg >

-penny

[Romestamo]

I think the most important thing in Chapter 2 is the establishment of Sam's character before the journey began. Frodo may be the ringbearer, but Sam is just as much the protagonist. The way that the journey changes him is one of the best aspects of the book.

In this chapter, Sam let's Sandyman walk all over him at the Green Dragon and has such little understanding of Gandalf as to believe Gandalf would turn him into "something unnatural." And, last but not least, his feelings about embarking on this important journey can be summed up as "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!"

[Penny1]

After our little chat on the "other thread" about how Sam reminds us sometimes of a faithful golden retriever, I cracked up totally at this line:

[Gandalf speaking to Samwise]"You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!" "Me sir!" cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!" he shouted, and then burst into tears.

Sam is such a dear....

-penny

[Carolina]

I loved most of all the innocence at the beginning of this story, and the foreshadowing that begins in hints and whispers.

In the movie, Gandalf is sitting in semi-darkness in a chair at Bag End, furiously puffing away smoke from his pipe and muttering:

"Riddles in the dark, riddles in the dark."

The crescendo of tension begins.

[DoctorMichael]

Thanks.........I'll have to read this (Gandalf) part again.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends... Merry accompanying him on his long walks, Sam defending him from the Green Dragon, but introduced as an employee, rather than a close friend. I wonder sometimes if Tolkien’s view of the roles the characters would eventually play was still developing in his own mind as he wrote.

[Penny1]

I noticed that too--both Merry and Pippin were singled out as being Frodo's closest friends while Sam is never mentioned in such terms. And you're right, Merry is the one who is the most involved in Frodo's life. Yet we are given many more glimpses of Sam than we are of M&P at this point--he is more fully developed as a character, as if we're being well set up for him to be the one whose life is most closely bound to Frodo's.

Perhaps the idea is that while Merry and Pippin became Frodo's friends during the peaceful years before the mission begins, Frodo's and Sam's friendship is forged in the trials and hardships of the mission itself. And it is their friendship that makes the biggest impact on the story.

There is also a great deal of "class consciousness" that underpins the story--Merry and Pippin are seen as Frodo's equals in class, while Sam is on a lower rung of society...at the beginning of the story...

-penny