M1911 vs. M9

The Sight M1911-A1 ^ | unknown | unattributed

[Dawgsquat]

M1911vsM9

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M1911 vs. M9

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

 

MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS

Beretta's Model 92FS Page

Beretta Info Page

Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page

M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer

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This page was last updated on 12/13/01

[Don Myers]

Lets toss the .40 S&W into the mix. Personally, I think this round can do the job of either the .40 S&W or 9MM.

[Dawgsquat]

I agree. The 1911s I shot in the Navy were well worn and a bit sloppy. I found that good observation and compensation after the first few rounds went a long way toward helping me when qualifying. The two I've owned since getting out have been much more accurate.

[Dawgsquat]

Thanks a bunch. I'll try those.

[Dawgsquat]

I've read good things about the .40 S&W, but have never had the pleasure of owning a gun in that caliber.

[zog]

---I prefer john brownings last design, the 1911 was his first, then the high power. His latest is sold in this country either from cz, or the EAA witness, made by tangfoglio in italy. DA/DC, variety of calibers, I have one in 45acp. Didn't require any after market titanium gps activated framis valve throated and ramped navigation systems hanging off of it either to be extremely accurate and reliable out of the box. Also about 1/3 cheaper than a stock 1911 from the normal american manufacturers, maybe 1/2 what colts cost. I find the 1911's, although I like them, to be clunky in the hand, especially if you have small hands, and easier to get hammer bite from. The tangfoglio has, IMO, better ergonomics, and takes down faster and smoother.

[Dawgsquat]

I once owned a Marlin Camp .45 and had several 20 round clips for it that were interchangable with my Springfield 1911. You're right, it made the pistol clumsy to handle and way too heavy. It was fun to lay down that kind of firepower though.

[zog]

--that's hysterically funny! And does it core an apple! Bet your bippy it does! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Where's the fuzzy dice??/ HAHAHAHA!curb feelers??//CD changer????/ hehehehehehe

[Dawgsquat]

I'll have to save my pennies and get that Glock .45. Sounds like a dream. Thanks for the info.

[Double Tap]

Yeah, I got a Ruger P-90. The problem with Ruger's is that they are plain jane guns that do what they were meant to do. Shoot.

My P-90 has approx. 5000 rounds through it and it has choked only on some of my reloads with range brass. All reloads with good brass and factory ammo go through it like s4!t through a goose. It is very accurate too.

[Dawgsquat]

My Daly has an extended beavertail that eliminates any possibility of bite.

[Double Tap]

I don't presently own either, 1911 or M9, but have in the past. Both are good guns, although the Beretta is by far the more reliable in "out of the box" condition.

The last 1911 I had was a POS from Springfield Armory and I will not have another until I can afford a good one (Les Baer).

I enjoy both calibers, 9mm and 45ACP, but shoot the 9mm alot for fun and carry the 45 (Glock 36) for peace of mind.

[Dawgsquat]

Interesting. I had a Springfield for several years. It had a selective appetite. Hated hollow points, but never failed with ball. I think it's obvious from reading the other posts and from personal experience that as long as you stick to ball you can't go wrong (regardless of the 1911 manufacturer).

[Shooter 2.5]

You just listed a charge that's over a half grain too hot. The closest I have seen is a charge of 5.5 and that's still a hot charge. Get that post pulled or I'll do it and next time, you idiot, stay within specs.

[AAABEST]

I don't presently own either, 1911 or M9, but have in the past. Both are good guns, although the Beretta is by far the more reliable in "out of the box" condition. I would tend to disagree with that, but my experiences may differ with yours.

I have a Baretta Tomcat that jams unless you know it's quirks. My friend just bought a Baretta 9mm that took a while to get the kinks out, and still will jam unless it's given proper attention. It's accurate as hell though.

When I first entered the Army we were issued the 1911 then switched over to the M9. I've heard a lot of complaints about the M9 (including that it's known to break apart at times), never one on the 1911. I always assumed the 1911 was known for reliability.

I admit however to having limited experience with both. I trained with them, but it's not like I shot thousands of rounds through each as a competitor would.

[Trailerpark Badass]

If not-- if there are .45's that will accept a so-called "high capactity" magazine-- are they desirable? Ought one go ahead and get one now, while there are still pre-ban magazines available? If so, which one?

Sure, a number of makers put out a hicap 1911 clone. I have a S-V Infinity hicap, which is nicely made and accurate enough to use in my half-assed Bullseye shooting. Hicap mags for these guns are not a problem, they're available. The SVIs and STIs are quite expensive, but the mags are not.

[Don Joe]

What were they using? A decent hollowpoint should have behaved better. (Unless he was hopped up on something, in which case all bets are off unless the bullet hit his spine, regardless of caliber.)

[Shooter 2.5]

What was wrong with the Springfield Armory? My son had to send his Trophy Match back because the chamber was too tight. I have an Ulta-Carry that was sent back because it wouldn't lock to the last quarter inch.

[balrog666]

Yeah, I got a Ruger P-90. The problem with Ruger's is that they are plain jane guns that do what they were meant to do. Shoot. My P-90 has approx. 5000 rounds through it and it has choked only on some of my reloads with range brass. All reloads with good brass and factory ammo go through it like s4!t through a goose. It is very accurate too.

Sounds just like mine. Mine was dead solid perfect right out of the box and has held up nicely. It's still my favorite gun to shoot.

[balrog666]

I once owned a Marlin Camp .45 and had several 20 round clips for it that were interchangable with my Springfield 1911. You're right, it made the pistol clumsy to handle and way too heavy. It was fun to lay down that kind of firepower though.

Sounds like a fun time. My shooting buddy has a 9mm Calico with the 50-round spiral magazines (and the stackable ones for 100 rounds). Wow, talk about spraying some lead!