Posted on 02/05/2002 8:18:30 AM PST by JediGirl
For those of us who are constantly checking up on the crevo threads, why do you debate the merits (or perceived lack thereof) of evolution?
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
--- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779
Our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."
--- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816
"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy, absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
--- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
--- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
. In fact, it is comfortable to see the standard of reason at length erected, after so many ages, during which the human mind has been held in vassalage by kings, priests, and nobles; and it is honorable for us, to have produced the first legislature who had the courage to declare, that the reason of man may be trusted with the formation of his own opinions....
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison from Paris, Dec. 16, 1786.
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
--James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance,"
The law has the further advantage of having been the result of a formal appeal to the sense of the Community and a deliberate sanction of a vast majority, comprizing [sic] every sect of Christians in the State. This act is a true standard of Religious liberty; its principle the great barrier agst [against] usurpations on the rights of conscience. As long as it is respected & no longer, these will be safe. Every provision for them short of this principle, will be found to leave crevices, at least thro' which bigotry may introduce persecution; a monster, that feeding & thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine & human.
--James Madison, "Monopolies. Perpetuities. Corporations. Ecclesiastical Endowments,"
Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of the mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions. Instead of discouraging him with proscriptions, fines, confiscation or death, let him be encouraged, as a free man, to bring forth his arguments and maintain his points with all boldness; then if his doctrine is false it will be confuted, and if it is true (though ever so novel) let others credit it. When every man has this liberty what can he wish for more? A liberal man asks for nothing more of government.
--John Leland, "The Rights of Conscience Inalienable, and Therefore Religious Opinions not Cognizable by Law" [a pamphlet], New London, Connecticut, 1791.
As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.
--Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776.
"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."
--Ben Franklin 1790
Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin, 1790
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787-
It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses....
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787
He has!
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
The Bible even talks about you:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Having read only a few responses, I'd say for me, believing in God seems the logical alternative with the multiple biblical prophecies fulfilled in the old and new testaments. I've also seen answers to prayer that seemed impossible without some divine intervention. There's also my completely changed lifestyle.
None of that may mean anything to you. For me it means everything.
Needing to & choosing to are two different things. He didn't NEED six days to do it.
But since you don't feel confident enough about your position to play along, I will just put it out there for you.
Even if men do not understand fully the way things are, things are a particular way. The speed of light in a vacuum is exactly 299,792,458 m/s. Out of all the possibilities one could imagine, it is that. What are the odds of that? There are infinite possibilities as to what it could have been, but it is that.
What are the odds then? One way, out of infinite possibilities. One over infinity. To me, that means that the odds that existance could have just happened are zero.
Regretably (or maybe not, depending on your interests) the conversation came to be focused almost entirely on evolution vs. creation. This is because of a style of argument which relies heavily on guilt by association. One side will say that Hitler was a Darwinist, therefore Darwinists are evil. The other side, as often as not, will counter that Hitler was a Christian, therefore Christians are evil. And then it goes into great detail with both sides offering much proof and vitriol on behalf of their respective posisitons.
Such discussions are good only for entertainment purposes. There are some topics on which people should simply agree to disagree. It helps if you keep in mind that it's called the Theory of evolution.
Stunning.
Well, let's see... I have a chemical engineering degree, was a valedictorian, a National Merit Scholar, had a 1520 SAT and a perfect 800 on the analytical section of the GRE, though I'd be hesitant to claim those as absolute indicators of high intelligence.
I believe in God for the same reason that I believe in Alaska. I have never been to Alaska. I have seen pictures / movies of it, but of course I wouldn't know the difference if these were faked, since I haven't been there. For all I can objectively demonstrate, the portion of the globe shown as Alaska might simply be an area of the Pacific Ocean.
I believe in the existence of Alaska on the basis of testimony by people who 1.) I trust, and 2.) have no clear motive to lie. Obviously, the existence of God (and the supernatural events of the Bible) are extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, thus it requires a greater level of trust on my part, but it is also backed up by philosophical examination of the world. The idea that time, space, matter and energy all just popped into being and randomly arranged themselves in a stable way seems to me an even more extraordinary (and less plausible) claim.
Before the Cambrian era very little is inscribed in the fossil record; but then, signaled by what I imagine as a spectral puff of smoke and a deafening ta-da!, an astonishing number of novel biological structures come into creation, and they come into creation at once.
Thereafter, the major transitional sequences are incomplete. Most species enter the evolutionary order fully formed and then depart unchanged. Where there should be evolution, there is stasis instead.
The fundamental core of Darwinian doctrine is no longer in dispute among scientists. Such is the party line....But it was to the dead that Darwin pointed for confirmation of his theory; the fact that paleontology does not entirely support his doctrine has been a secret of long standing among paleontologists. The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid.
Now...these same people [the extreme dogmatic ones] use it as a tool to deny the existance of God. Sorry--that won't fly, because it does nothing of the sort.
I take it that you are willing to believe that you have *a mind*, but apparently must believe that other people are just robots. (How could any intelligent person believe that others have minds?)
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