Posted on 02/02/2002 4:22:03 AM PST by veronica
Jesus says (about Israel): "I who come in the name of the Father they have rejected but he who comes in his own name they will accept." One can argue about the conventional understanding of the "he who comes in his own name"--my view and the Darby answer is the Anti-Christ. There is certainly no argument that this has already occurred.
Thus Christians must recognize that at some point in the near future, Israel will recognize a False Christ as Messiah--what will our view of Israel be then?
I am a firm public supporter of Israel and the Jews--not only because they are God's chosen people; including the reminant that will inherit the role described by God for His people; but from a secular political point of view, we share an ultimate common heritage and they are one of two or possibly three long term allies of the United States in the support of the Judeo Christian foundation of Western Civilization.
However our support for Israel in this time must be tempered by the knowledge that Israel and the World are searching for competing leadership, not only a political sense that would result in restoration of Israel control of the land but also monetary leadership alternative to the US Dollar. For those who have wisdom, the Anti-Christ's foundation must be recognized as an international monetary system.
With respect to Darby's general eschatological pattern, the only substantive response must be that the Bible prophecies he identifies are not meant to be read litterally--they are to be read allegorically. There may be spirtual fulfillments. But these events are just not to be expected to happen on the ground in the real world.
That whole thesis sounds to me much like the modern world's response to God and the Bible--it's just not real. I reject that. Historically, every word that has been tested--every prophecy that has come to term; has been real. God is here on the ground doing His will in accordance with His plan.
If you don't want to believe that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"--just fine with me. How do you suppose this is going to happen? Did Paul just make all this up?
Right. And who are His people? You have to know who the players are to understand the game. Click on my Profile to see the player list.
Yes indeed, and we share a lot more common heritage than that. It's genetic cousins helping cousins...
Mt 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Those who love Him keep His commandments. Those who don't love Him, don't.
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Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
But it does get wearisome when people push the idea that Christian proselytizing is ipso facto a bad thing. One can flip this around and make the case that Jews are exclusionary. Rather than rail against either position, I think both are valid. That Jews have been able to keep their traditions intact for thousands of years is wonderful. So is the devotion and sacrifices Christians have made to spread their faith.
Besides, the threat to Jewish identity today is not Christianity, it is secularism.
Well said agrace.
AGREED! Not only do I support them from a biblical standpoint, but I support them politically as well. And not only that, but they also have the historical upper hand, if you can dig through all the propaganda that gets thrown around.
That whole thesis sounds to me much like the modern world's response to God and the Bible--it's just not real. I reject that. Historically, every word that has been tested--every prophecy that has come to term; has been real. God is here on the ground doing His will in accordance with His plan.
Agree again, totally.
If you don't want to believe that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"--just fine with me. How do you suppose this is going to happen? Did Paul just make all this up?
Are you referring to ME as "you"? :) I do believe what Paul said, absolutely. I'm not too worried about rapture timing. I've a got a very strong interest in prophecy in general, have studied it quite a bit, and have decided to just be ready no matter what.
I have never heard that before. Do you have any links to support that? I'd love to read about it, thanks.
agrace wrote in #10: >I'd like to think it is rather that we love the Jewish people because God loves them, that we respect His covenant with them, and remember that we are grafted into their tree.
Right. They are grafted in and how the Lord regathers and restores them is a mystery that is unfolding and is wondrous to see. The Baptist preacher mentioned in post #6 is boasting against the branches which he was expressly warned in Romans 11 not to do, lest he be cut-off. That sound of a tree falling in the forest is the lopped off, dead, unfruitful branches of those who say they abide but do not. That Baptist is in major error and teaching it just like Martin Luther did.
400 years is a biblical type of bondage: in Egypt, in departing from the Law which Josiah restored when it was found in the wall, and so on. It is 400 years to the day that the Ottomans had control:
...October 31, 1517 to October 31, 1917 = 400 years. The British Lord, General Edmund Allenby, took Beersheba and began his drive toward Jerusalem. Israel a nation in 1948 was a total of 430 years which was the total years in Egypt. (The U.N. reared its ugly head about that time, a bigger brother of the 1917 League of Nations.)
At the same time, on the same day...
...October 31, 1517 Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door at Wittenberg (considered to be the start of the Reformation) and derailed the church into continued and furthered apostacy (bondage to inherited lies), and deceived many by teaching falsely about the Jews, the Law, Sabbath worship, adding "alone" to the scripture following "faith," and excluding James from the Bible.
..."From the Catholic (Roman) teaching of justification by works of penance, etc., Luther went to the opposite extreme of justification without works. This idea caused him to deny that the Epistle of James was inspired, because James said, 'Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.' This attitude made Luther spurn the true Christian Sabbath." (History of the Sabbath by Andrews. See third edition, 1887) ...Why the Protestant Reformation Failed!But the church didn't recover itself in 1917. 70 X 7 or 490 is another frequent biblical picture. 1517 + 490 will be 2007, an interesting number for those who hold things loosely...and, No, that is not a prediction. Other events of 1917: WW1 ended, League of Nations, Fatima appeared to three children in Portugal.
Hitler planned Krystallnacht (the beginning of the round-up and extermination of the Jews) on Nov. 9/10, 1938 in honor of Martin Luther's birthday for Luther's blueprint for getting rid of the Jews, a book entitled, "On the Jews and their lies." We know that man (Luther) is false by his fruit and notice the stinking fruit in the deceived Baptist above as well.
A major scripture for this day for Christians should be:
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.If we truly love Truth and He who IS Truth, then when we are confronted with Truth that was hid from us before, we should embrace Truth and cast away that which is false of tradition and doctrines of men. To not do so is Idolatry.
Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
1Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if* thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if** thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Obedience and faithfulness are written in the Torah from beginning to end and continue a daily lifetime walk of continuing in the Word. Many have been deceived into thinking they don't have to continue because they have already arrived. They do err.
*if thou seek. 2Ch 15:2; Pr 2:1-6; Isa 45:19; 55:6-7; Jer 29:13; Mt 7:7-8; Jas 4:8-11
**if thou forsake. De 31:16-17; 1Ki 9:6-9; Ezr 8:22; Isa 1:28; Heb 10:38-39
Anti-Judiasm and the Council of Nicea
Why the Protestant Reformation Failed!
Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"
Yashanet: Not Subject to the Law of God?
LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) statement on Martin Luther's error
Martin Luther and John Calvin Offer Some Advice on The Jews
Martin Luther's dirty little book: On the Jews and their lies
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 50 - The Reformation and the Jews - Luther
Ottoman Rule 400 years
Martin Luther: the author of "The Jews and Their Lies"
Gates of Jewish Heritage: Germany in the 16th Century
PAX
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