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THE EFFECTS OF REGENERATION - Calvinism
http://w3.gorge.net/braveheart/arthurw.htm ^ | Unknown | A.W. Pink

Posted on 02/01/2002 5:26:40 AM PST by CCWoody

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To: Jerry_M
"you might be surprised that there is a huge following of these doctrines during our time, with a return to these tenets being seen in many places."

What doctrines? What places? What is the central, specific disagreement?

41 posted on 02/04/2002 7:02:37 AM PST by moyden
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To: Jerry_M; Dr. Eckleburg; jamits
au contraire, the Pink sermon on regeneration and the natural state of man has a tremendous bearing on politics. At the same time, I didn't have any trouble both reading and understanding it.

Interesting how a thread about The Effects of Regeneration has turned into something of a political discussion....

42 posted on 02/04/2002 7:05:42 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
Jerry's older article made some interesting points about rebellion against the centralized church and early American politics, but I see nothing in the A.W. Pink stuff but theological mumbo jumbo.

However, once again, I'll bite. What does "regeneration" have to do with politics?

43 posted on 02/04/2002 7:10:38 AM PST by moyden
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To: moyden; CCWoody
"A tirade against Calvinism is a waste of time since few follow it any more."

So now we have the "democratic" approach to eternal life?

It's not how many will find the path, but whether it is the path. - The Lord told us that few would find the way to eternal life, so you've simply proven his word.

44 posted on 02/04/2002 7:10:38 AM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: moyden
What doctrines? What places? What is the central, specific disagreement?

Doctrine:
What C.H. Spurgeon called "the doctrines of grace", summarized by the acronym TULIP:
T - Total depravity of man
U - Unconditional election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistable grace
P - Perseverence of the saints

Places:
Well, most everywhere in protestantism. My experience, as a Baptist, has been the resurrgence of these doctrines as witnessed by the Founders's Movement.

Central specific disagreement:
Take any of the T, U, L, I, or P, and there are those who deny their veracity. Pink's sermon demonstrates that man is spiritually dead (not just sick), or "Totally depraved" and requires the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration prior to conversion.

45 posted on 02/04/2002 7:14:36 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: editor-surveyor
Is it your purpose to speak in riddles?

1. Who, specifically, today is a Calvinist, and why?

2. What it the "one path" that you go on about?

3. How can you have a "democratic" religion?

46 posted on 02/04/2002 7:16:48 AM PST by moyden
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To: moyden
"However, once again, I'll bite. What does "regeneration" have to do with politics?"

An understanding of the nature and composition of man is essential to understanding man as a political being. The Founding Fathers (many of whom were Calvinists) understood the nature of man, and thus crafted our founding documents accordingly. There is a huge difference between those who realize just how rotten natural man is, and those who assume that man is basically good.

Democrats, by and large, believe that man is basically good, and that a change to his environment, etc. would bring out the best in him. As a result, they throw our dollars at any and every problem. We, on the other hand, know that man is rotten to the core, and requires different solutions to his problems. We believe that man needs, first of all, regeneration, and a new heart.

47 posted on 02/04/2002 7:19:08 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: moyden; OrthodoxPresbyterian; jamits
However, once again, I'll bite. What does "regeneration" have to do with politics?
Some might criticize you for putting that up there, saying this is a political, not a religious site. But actually the ideas you posted are very relevant to the current war on terrorism. What you posted is the epitome of the Christian view of humanity and salvation. The human being cannot save himself. Human works cannot bring in the Kingdom of God; the "wrath of man works not the righteousness of God". In Islam, by contrast, the "wrath of man" does work the righteousness of God. People can attain righteousness, as far as we know it, by their works and bring in the God's will on earth through their enforcement of God's law. In Islam sin is only about outward acts and so sin can be eliminated by forcing people to conform to God's law. Hence, if a source of sin can be eliminated by a terrorist act, that is a good thing.

3 posted on 2/1/02 6:37 AM Pacific by jamits

Furthermore, no system can be sustained without an underlying appeal to a transcendental authority. Hence, the reason that there is a move in this country to try to strip us of our Reformed roots. Change the source of our appeal and you fundamentally change the nature of our system.

Those of us who are regenerated know that we must constantly reveal the Source of our moral foundation and fight to defend it from those who would tear it down. Our country was founded by a moral religious people for a moral religious people. This is why among the first freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights is religious freedom. This is why Communism first supresses the peoples free press and religious freedom. Our founding fathers has a specific reason to list things the way that they did.

48 posted on 02/04/2002 7:25:04 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: moyden; editor-surveyor
This is what ES (and others) have been alluding to:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - Jesus, as recorded in Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 7, verses 13 & 14.

49 posted on 02/04/2002 7:26:05 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: editor-surveyor
However, if the Calvinists are right, man can't 'find' anything. God just leaves him dead until for some reason He decides to make man alive.
50 posted on 02/04/2002 7:41:19 AM PST by MEGoody
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To: moyden
"Is it your purpose to speak in riddles?"

No, I didn't realize that I had.

"1. Who, specifically, today is a Calvinist, and why?"

Perhaps it is the term 'Calvinist' that is tripping you up? - The name is not necessary.
The idea is salvation by Grace through Faith, which faith is not of us, but is it's self a gift from God. - How do you believe that you are to be saved?

"2. What is the "one path" that you go on about? "

That is exactly what is being discussed here, that you seem to think is inappropriate for discussion here.

"3. How can you have a "democratic" religion?"

You can't. - Your comment seemed to indicate that you believed that the majority opinion was automatically correct.

51 posted on 02/04/2002 7:47:25 AM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: MEGoody
"However, if the Calvinists are right, man can't 'find' anything. God just leaves him dead until for some reason He decides to make man alive."

This is a complete strawman. - Where do you get this bizarre belief?

52 posted on 02/04/2002 7:51:07 AM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: Jerry_M
"Democrats, by and large, believe that man is basically good, and that a change to his environment, etc. would bring out the best in him. As a result, they throw our dollars at any and every problem. We, on the other hand, know that man is rotten to the core, and requires different solutions to his problems. We believe that man needs, first of all, regeneration, and a new heart."

Agreed. We all sin. But then, most Christian groups teach this, do they not? Certainly the ones a I am familiar with do - Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, etc ...

53 posted on 02/04/2002 7:51:43 AM PST by moyden
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To: moyden; editor-surveyor
What it the "one path" that you go on about?

Everybody will one day die. We simply happen to know the Lord Jesus, Almighty God and Creator of all, personally and have His promise that after our flesh dies we will be renewed perfect in His likeness and will live forever with Him on the [new] earth after all corruption has been purged from it.

We have been regenerated in our spirits and believe from the depths of our hearts that HE IS and is the rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him. We have the Living God within, which is the Seal of the Promise He has made to us who seek our delight and our passion and our purpose in Him. We know the joy inexpressible and surpassing value of knowing Him personally.

What do you think will happen when you die?

54 posted on 02/04/2002 7:55:22 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
"Everybody will one day die. We simply happen to know the Lord Jesus, Almighty God and Creator of all, personally and have His promise that after our flesh dies we will be renewed perfect in His likeness and will live forever with Him on the [new] earth after all corruption has been purged from it."

Every church teaches this. How does your "regeneration" differ from others?

55 posted on 02/04/2002 7:58:32 AM PST by moyden
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To: MEGoody; editor-surveyor
However, if the Calvinists are right, man can't 'find' anything. God just leaves him dead until for some reason He decides to make man alive.

What if God is right:

Genesis 2:15-17 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Man is born spiritually dead; he needs to be reborn.
56 posted on 02/04/2002 7:58:52 AM PST by CCWoody
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To: Racebannon;Jerry_M
T - Total depravity of man

U - Unconditional election

L - Limited atonement

I - Irresistable grace

P - Perseverence of the saints

Places: Well, most everywhere in protestantism. My experience, as a Baptist, has been the resurrgence of these doctrines as witnessed by the Founders's Movement.

Hey Race - go figure - didnt you try to tell me there was no such thing as a Calvinistic Baptist a week or two ago? I think your exact words were "Baptists are not Calvinists"

Wesleyan Arminian bump & blessings to my Calvin brethren

57 posted on 02/04/2002 7:59:20 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: moyden
"Agreed. We all sin. But then, most Christian groups teach this, do they not? Certainly the ones a I am familiar with do - Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, etc ..."

You would be surprised to find that there are many churches that find it appalling that anyone would preach against sin. Most often these are mainline churches who have abandoned their foundational doctrines and replaced them with a humanistic relativism that states that there are no bad people, only bad decisions.

There is a need to remind people of the true message of Christianity, and of its impact upon our political institutions. If not FR, then where?

58 posted on 02/04/2002 8:01:57 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: moyden
Every church teaches this. How does your "regeneration" differ from others?

It doesn't

I believe that you too are a 'Calvinist' in all liklihood, but were just not familar with the term. - It is not universally used; some avoid the use of labels because they tend to be self-limiting.

59 posted on 02/04/2002 8:03:16 AM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: Revelation 911; Race bannon
No such thing as a Calvinistic Baptist?

Race should learn that all of the founders of the SBC were Calvinists, and that Baptists are returning, by the droves, to these foundational doctrines.

60 posted on 02/04/2002 8:03:58 AM PST by Jerry_M
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