Facing The Truth About Homosexual Behavior

Traditional Values Coalition ^ | January 29, 2002 | Rev. Louis P. Sheldon

[Dukie]

You have identified a good point. There is a difference between education, which is a public good, and schooling, which as a public enterprise has failed dismally because of its unlimited apetite and ability to appropriate funds.

[MadameAxe]

Madame the last thing you want is even more uneducated morons running around with no future in anything but criminality.

Agreed. The difference seems to be that, you think public schools prevent this problem, and I think they promote it.

I see there's been a thread started where this discussion would probably be more on topic.

[jejones]

Ms. Paglia, wonderful as her columns are to read, is missing the point, and in the same way as many anti-homosexual posters I've seen here. Species survival isn't necessarily the same as survival of all the individuals. The canonical example is sickle-cell anemia. There are far more heterozygotes than homozygous recessives, so that in a land where malaria is prevalent, the protection against malaria that being heterozygous provides more than compensates, if one is solely concerned with propagating the species, for the nasty fate that befalls the homozygous recessives--which is why the gene hung around in Africa, much to the sorrow of people of African ancestry today.

I'm not saying that homosexuality is necessarily like that; I'm just saying that the "fool's mate" that people often try for, "homosexuality must be due to the environment because homosexuals don't reproduce," is a non sequitur.

[jejones]

OK. When I hold hands with my fiancée in public, are we "flaunting our heterosexuality in people's faces?"

[Dukie]

Public schools were successful in large measure due to the common culture and beliefs which characterized the United States until the later decades of the 20th century. Today, with their state mandated mission to promote multicultural diversity, alternative lifestyle acceptance, etc. state schools have stolen time and resources from the core subjects of scholastic endeavor for such non productive ends.

I believe we've reached the point that public schools are beyond redemption and that private enterprise - including acadamies, church schools, charter schools and home schools - is the best avenue toward a renaissance in American education.

[justshutupandtakeit]

And your every post illustrates your inability to keep your own arguments straight. When called on your lies, mis-statements and distortions you get all insulting and start namecalling. So much for any credibility you might have on educational issues.

You ARE lost.

[SeeRushToldU_So]

Ping

[justshutupandtakeit]

A well educated population is a benefit for the nation as a whole. Without sufficient education we can't even have an effective military.

Living in a society has certain costs which must be paid. Representatives make decisions to tax in order to pay for those expenses it is not theft.

Socialism is not the same as a welfare state or a capitalistic state regulated by government or a representative republic. We have a combination of the latter two it is not socialistic.

You are one of those who makes broad inaccurate generalizations then calls one who doesn't agree "socialist, nazi or communist or collectivist" rather than trying to understand where you fail in your ideas or communicative ability.

By your definition there could never be a society which is not "collectivistic." Of course, if you hate taxation that much you could always go to a place more to your liking couldn't you? Like Afganistan- no government there and no taxes no rules everyone armed to the teeth no public education no public services. I am sure you would love it.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Private enterprise has never created viable means of education when that is all there is. It was precisely because of the failures of private enterprise that public schools were created. This is history not some fantasy of mine. A system which educates a small minority of the wealthy cannot function within a modern society nor could it solidify and consolidate a nation's population.

I do not dispute some of your critiques of current standards and issues wrt to schools but those same problems (and worse) are in many of the private schools as well. Teaching the truth about American history is very important and very neglected in both systems.

But the question no one wants to answer is "how are the poor going to afford $6,000 per yr. per student?" And since the nation needs educated people "how is the nation going to prosper with less education." "How are we even going to have a sufficiently educated military if we allow the public education system to self-destruct?"

[freefly]

"A well educated population is a benefit for the nation as a whole."

The literacy rate was higher in this country before the schools "went public"

"Living in a society has certain costs which must be paid."

Somehow we managed quite well before income tax came along.
Not to mention all the rest of the overwhelming taxes we have levied on us these days.

"Representatives make decisions to tax in order to pay for those expenses."

Doesn't make it right. Or Constitutional.

"...it is not theft."

If I don't hand my money over (or allow it to be taken), then someone points a gun at me and not only takes it, but puts me in jail.
If it's not theft, it's close enough -whether there are "laws" that allow it or not.

"Socialism is not the same as a welfare state or a capitalistic state regulated by government or a representative republic. We have a combination of the latter two it is not socialistic."

Wiggle all you want. Our tax rate is outrageous and most of the money never makes it back to the citizens as a whole.
It is actually socialism/collectivism without the payback.

"You are one of those who makes broad inaccurate generalizations then calls one who doesn't agree "socialist, nazi or communist or collectivist" rather than trying to understand where you fail in your ideas or communicative ability."

You are one of those who attempt to complicate an issue so that the truth is obscured and people don't see what is really going on. I attempt to simplify it so that people can see and understand what is really happening. The fed takes our money and spends it on social programs...usually after skimming off a huge percentage to waste on government bureaucracy. THAT is the truth of the situation. You can attempt to hide it all you want, but it doesn't change the reality. I suspect you understand fully what you support, you just are unwilling to admit it.

"By your definition there could never be a society which is not "collectivistic."

We did quite well before fdr (a hard-core socialist) got into power.

Of course, if you hate taxation that much you could always go to a place more to your liking couldn't you?

I'd rather people like you that like it so much go someplace where you can give all your money to the government and get all the "services" that you deserve -instead of trying to turn THIS country into one of the failed socialist/collectivist/communist/whatever countries that justify taking their citizen's money in the name of "the public good".
Sounds to me as though you would love it. (As long as there are others to foot the bill.)

[Dukie]

See 401 above. The problem is that public schools do not face the accountability of competition in the marketplace of education. Parents of students who do not use them are still compelled to pay for them. If you agree as I suggest that education is a public good which is financed by public funding, then should not the finest suppliers of that good be rewarded while the incompetent purveyors fall by the wayside. While the state has a role in setting educational achievement standards, in just the same way as it specifies performance standards for military aircraft, fighting vehicles etc. the marketplace and private suppliers are the most capable in delivering the specified product at the agreed upon price.

[jejones]

If you have an example of f.Christian doing something other than "babbling and emmiting [sic] other inarticulate sounds" I'd be very interested in a pointer to it.

[jejones]

I take it you haven't bothered to read the page you linked to, since it says Jesse Dirkhising was 13 years old at the time of his murder, and hence was not a consenting adult. OK, the other possibliity is that you didn't read what you were replying to...

[justshutupandtakeit]

It is simply a lie that literacy rates were higher before there were public schools. There have been public schools in some parts of the nation from the beginning of the Republic. Please don't lie about these issues it only makes your arguments look even more foolish.

In the days when only the wealthy could afford an education no one cared since the vast majority of the population lived on farms and thus had little need of an education. Once urbanization became significant the need for education skyrocketed.

Income taxes are the only way that the enormous costs of a modern military can be paid. This is the lesson learned from the Civil War. And apparently forgotten by the hate-government cult.

In fact, it does make it constitutional. Freefly's definition of constitutional--Something freefly doesn't like.

We were not discussing the level of taxes (we might agree there) but the fact that they are not theft or that an individual has the right to nullify them.

Unfortunately for your argument in representative government representatives respond to the demands of their constituents for these programs. If more want them than don't then the reps. get re-elected and, if the courts don't rule otherwise they are constitutional.

Simplification rarely makes issues more comprehensible generally less. It is most often those who know least about an issue who complains about their opponent "complicating" things. Reality is very complicated only ideologies are simple (and wrong.)

Before FDR became president there were unpopular programs and taxes. In fact, almost as soon as the Republic was established there was opposition to unpopular programs and taxes.

How would you pay for the military without an income tax?

I prefer a government of laws so won't leave and realize that taxes are as inescapable as death if you want to live in a decent, civilized country since you apparently don't care the leaving should be done by you particularly since you don't believe we have a constitutional government but one that is "robbing" you. How can you live under such a tyrannical regime?

[Mustang]

If one dips his stick into a shit hole...bad things will happen.

Next truism...!!

[justshutupandtakeit]

I agree that competition and accountability is needed but there are big problems in how to measure success. Will it be test scores (then the teachers teach to the test) will it be grades (then the teachers which give the highest grades will survive)? How are you going to evaluate the success which comes years down the road when you realize that one of those teachers you hated actually was right? Will it be how high a percentage of H.S. grads to complete college? To make high incomes? To be leaders?

These are not simple issues easily answered.

This is an issue of pricing of public goods and is one of the reasons the nation developed public schools in the first place. Intertemporal evaluations are very difficult to perform accurately. Input at year 1 may produce outputs at year 10 but have to be evaluated in year 2.

[Heyworth]

Unfortunately, I can never find the specifics on cases offered up in this manner. No location, no names of those arrested, no news stories relating to the verdict of the trial and what the sentence was and so on.

November 6, 1998 Web posted at: 10:13 p.m. EST (0313 GMT)

HOUSTON (AP) -- Sheriff's deputies responding to a false report of an armed intruder inside an apartment caught two men having sex and arrested them, setting up a case that could bring an end to Texas' rarely enforced, 119-year-old law against sodomy.

The law, modified by the 1993 Legislature, makes homosexual oral and anal sex a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $500.

"There is a zone of privacy that's been recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court," insists David Jones, attorney for the two arrested men, now out on bond pending a court appearance. "It's in their interest that we fight the sodomy law."

After receiving the false report September 17, Harris County sheriff's deputies entered the apartment through what they said was an open door and found the men having sex. One of the men lived in the apartment.

[freefly]

"It is simply a lie that literacy rates were higher before there were public schools. "

So says justshutupandtakeit. I've seen figures that indicate otherwise and will post links when I have time to dig them up.

"Please don't lie about these issues it only makes your arguments look even more foolish."

Advice you should keep in mind as you post.

"In the days when only the wealthy could afford an education no one cared since the vast majority of the population lived on farms and thus had little need of an education."

That's funny, a lot of them worked very hard to get those educations.

"Once urbanization became significant the need for education skyrocketed."

Really?
Then perhaps you can explain this: Are children deliberately 'dumbed down' in school?

"Income taxes are the only way that the enormous costs of a modern military can be paid."

Perhaps you should look at how our tax money gets spent.
Besides, then you get into what our role in the world really is.
If you are a NWO cultist, or a supporter of an American Empire, then no doubt you support a big expensive military.
Not exactly what our founding fathers had in mind, but exactly what the world socialists want.
I prefer their comments about the need for the military, to protect our shores, not be the world's policeman.

"In fact, it does make it constitutional."

Oh, might makes for constitutional. Yea, right.

"Freefly's definition of constitutional--Something freefly doesn't like."

On the contrary. Constitutional is what is defined in our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Try to remember the advice about lying.

"Unfortunately for your argument in representative government representatives respond to the demands of their constituents for these programs."

Democratic socialism.
Electing your masters doesn't make you any less a slave.

"If more want them than don't then the reps. get re-elected"

Oh yea, we can see THAT stops them...(what planet are you living on???)

"...and, if the courts don't rule otherwise they are constitutional."

Dead wrong bucko...and it has been ruled so in more than one case.
The advice about lying...TRY to keep it in mind. (or are you just ignorant on this one?)

"Simplification rarely makes issues more comprehensible generally less."

You are saying that complication makes issues more comprehensible?
Keep going, you are digging your own hole on this one.

"It is most often those who know least about an issue who complains about their opponent "complicating" things."

"complicating" things = smokescreen...definitly in your case.

"Before FDR became president there were unpopular programs and taxes."

There sure were.
And after he became president those programs and taxes started multiplying at an overwhelming rate...
leaving us where we are today and STILL increasing as fast as they can justify it.

"How would you pay for the military without an income tax?"

By cutting out all the federal programs that have nothing to do with protecting our shores minting our money, etc.
And firing about 95% of the bureaucrats that make a living on federal welfare.

"I prefer a government of laws so won't leave and realize that taxes are as inescapable as death if you want to live in a decent, civilized country..."

Our country was just fine before taxes became the major expense in a person's budget.
If you think otherwise, why don't you haul butt to Europe or one of the other places where they agree with you?

"since you apparently don't care the leaving should be done by you"

Keep wishing.
Of course, if I and those like me DID leave, then someone else would have to pick up the tab.
Besides, this country is about individuals working for their own success. Not about being a welfare state.
Something that you have either forgotten or ignored.
If your statement about high taxes being necessary to "live in a decent civilized country" were true, then you might be right.
But it is false. So I will continue to work to "roll back government largesse"...what this site is all about.
(Since you want to justify that "government largesse" perhaps you would be more comfortable on a liberal site,
maybe the Democratic Underground. I'm sure you would find lots of people to agree with you on there.)

"..particularly since you don't believe we have a constitutional government but one that is "robbing" you."

Oh we have a Constitutional government, just one that has been suspended by people that have been suckered into thinking the way that you do.
Senate Report 93-549 on the War and Emergency Powers Acts

"How can you live under such a tyrannical regime?"

By working to change it back to what it is supposed to be.
Something that -judging by your screen name- you will never understand.

[tpaine]

And your every post illustrates your inability to keep your own arguments straight. When called on your lies, mis-statements and distortions you get all insulting and start namecalling. So much for any credibility you might have on educational issues. You ARE lost.

Sheer BS. -- You can't post a lie, mis-statement or distortion, or you would have.

As to 'lost', go preach to someone who cares what you think. -- I see none here.

[FormerLib]

I've heard about this one as well. It seems that the false report of the break-in was phoned in by a roommate who had become fed-up with coming home to scenes of sodomy in his living room, even if it was shared. If they'd just restricted their perverted activities to their own bedroom (ie if they'd kept it private) then this wouldn't have happened.

By the way, the roommate was charged with filing a false police report but I can't remember how that played out. I think he got a fine but I'm not sure.

Anyway, as I said, this never happens where there's a reasonable expectation of privacy.