Replies

Whether you term it 'Calvinism' or not, the result is the same. God is not a 'cosmic rapist' who forces Himself on His children. The bible is rife with passages encouraging us to chose life, as it were. I'm sure you are quite convinced of what you are saying, and quite convinced you are convincing in what you are saying - but I'm not convinced.

" God is not a 'cosmic rapist' who forces Himself on His children."

OPie: I wondered how long it would take for this "cosmic rapist" falacy to surface. I thought that we had put this to rest in the last major go round on the original predestination threads. The fact that it rears its ugly head again is a sure sign of desperation.

MEGoody: If you really understood Calvinism, you would be ashamed to make such a statement.

One more thought on your "cosmic rapist" statement.

I, for one, am eternally grateful that God forcefully made His presence known to me. I am awfully grateful that His Holy Spirit produced in me so great a conviction that I was a lost sinner on my way to Hell. I am so very, very grateful that He did what was necessary to break through my sin and pride and show me that I was lost, lost, lost without Christ. I will praise Him forever knowing that He loved me enough to draw me to Himself, and that He had chosen to make me a part of the Body of Christ. I am daily amazed at the nature of His grace which granted me the faith to believe in the name of Jesus and the fact of His resurrection from the dead.

Rape? Not hardly. In fact, my wife welcomes my amorous advances, and I have done far, far less in showing my love to her than God has demonstrated to me. I earnestly desire to be coupled with Him, and open my heart to Him in response to His attention.

Whether you term it 'Calvinism' or not, the result is the same. God is not a 'cosmic rapist' who forces Himself on His children. The bible is rife with passages encouraging us to chose life, as it were. I'm sure you are quite convinced of what you are saying, and quite convinced you are convincing in what you are saying - but I'm not convinced.

As I have said: I am entirely willing, for the sake of discussion, to throw out the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and suppose that Man, even in his natural, Fallen state, nonetheless possesses wholly uninhibited free will and utterly unencumbered natural moral competence to Repent and "choose life".

Because even making these allowances doesn't help your position one bit.

I am not herein particularly concerned with proving Calvinism per se, but simply the precedent doctrinal matter of Absolute Sovereign Predestination -- that God, of His own Sovereign Will, absolutely pre-determines the individual choices of Men, to Repent or not to Repent.

Let's take it from the top. Assume that Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom possess all the free will and natural moral competence you want, and God has still absolutely pre-determined what their choices are going to be, by His control of the factors (such as displays of miracles) which inform their Free Will.

Here it is again:

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.
True, or False?

You know that what Jesus is teaching here: that God has specifically pre-determined the individual choices of Men.

These are the specific words of Jesus.
And I accuse you of understanding His words, and hating them.

Prove me wrong. Answer the question.

God is not a 'cosmic rapist' who forces Himself on His children.

Your right. How could I have been so wrong! </SARCASM>

What you really want to say is that God must ask permission from his "dirt" before He can do anything.

For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?