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To: MEGoody, Jerry_M, the_doc
Whether you term it 'Calvinism' or not, the result is the same. God is not a 'cosmic rapist' who forces Himself on His children. The bible is rife with passages encouraging us to chose life, as it were. I'm sure you are quite convinced of what you are saying, and quite convinced you are convincing in what you are saying - but I'm not convinced.

As I have said: I am entirely willing, for the sake of discussion, to throw out the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and suppose that Man, even in his natural, Fallen state, nonetheless possesses wholly uninhibited free will and utterly unencumbered natural moral competence to Repent and "choose life".

Because even making these allowances doesn't help your position one bit.

I am not herein particularly concerned with proving Calvinism per se, but simply the precedent doctrinal matter of Absolute Sovereign Predestination -- that God, of His own Sovereign Will, absolutely pre-determines the individual choices of Men, to Repent or not to Repent.

Let's take it from the top. Assume that Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom possess all the free will and natural moral competence you want, and God has still absolutely pre-determined what their choices are going to be, by His control of the factors (such as displays of miracles) which inform their Free Will.

Here it is again:


Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.


You know that what Jesus is teaching here: that God has specifically pre-determined the individual choices of Men.

These are the specific words of Jesus.
And I accuse you of understanding His words, and hating them.

Prove me wrong. Answer the question.

1,005 posted on 01/24/2002 5:02:30 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian, ME Goody
but simply the precedent doctrinal matter of Absolute Sovereign Predestination -- that God, of His own Sovereign Will, absolutely pre-determines the individual choices of Men, to Repent or not to Repent.

Do you believe that God is FAIR/JUST?

1,007 posted on 01/24/2002 5:07:50 PM PST by xzins
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