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Calvin is very careful. As a methodical theologian and exegete, his efforts to avoid overstatement or understatement of scripture are almost insuperable. I'm speaking here of his methods, not necessarily his conclusions to which you obviously object. He was in this sense, I think, at least the equal of Augustine and more consistent in his methods and principles than Luther proved to be.

When you push Calvinism back to its premises and ask why the Calvinist has no answer. All the words spent on defending the points are wasted because ultimately the system has no final answer that deals with what God is doing and why He is doing it.

The purpose to God in all of this(according to Calvinism) is His own glorification.

Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace.

This He did because it gave Him pleasure (Rev.4:11)

"Actually, the best texts to give the appearance that regeneration could precede faith are Tit.3:5 and Rev.1:5"

What about John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace.

The glory is diminished in your sight because you would have done it differently. But you are not the sovereign God of all creation. He will have mercy on who He has mercy and will harden who He hardens. When we think of this as being an arbitrary matter, it is unfair. But God does not do this arbitrarily.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6)

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory." (Eph 1:11,12)

Our will, subject to our sinful nature, will always rebel against God. The Israelites had every reason to love God and follow His commandments in terms of God acting visibly and directly in front of them. So many say that if God were acting visibly today in the same manner that so many more would believe, but Israel proved that false. The total depravity of man can be seen on the news every day. Unless we were called specifically, who would believe? If Scripture said He chose whom He called by the flip of a coin or at the whim of His feelings that moment, I could see logic in protesting the unfairness of those actions. Even then, I would still have no choice but to accept the sovereign will of God. But we are told He chose us according to His good pleasure (for what other kind of pleasure does God have) and the purpose of His will. I don't shudder because I know not what that purpose is. Rather I take comfort knowing that God's purpose is just and holy and that it's only by His grace and mercy that I have my salvation.

God bless!

When you push Calvinism back to its premises and ask why the Calvinist has no answer. All the words spent on defending the points are wasted because ultimately the system has no final answer that deals with what God is doing and why He is doing it.

He does it to please Himself and to glorify Himself before all His creation. Do not imagine Arminians are perched upon some high ground here from which lofty elevation they may look down upon the humble Calvinist.

The purpose to God in all of this(according to Calvinism) is His own glorification.

With regard to salvation and other matters, the Bible repeatedly teaches us that God intends to show His eternal glory. And He demands that we acknowledge it. And this pattern of glorification will ultimately culminate at the Judgment Throne where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is King. And I suspect that the damned will confess it as well before they are cast into hell. You will not embarass a Calvinist by accusing him of a proper fear of God and acknowledging God's intent in glorifying Himself over and above all His creation.

Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace.

You may feel that God has diminished His glory by not choosing to offer universal salvation. If so, your KJV has done you little good. I do not judge God's methods.

This He did because it gave Him pleasure (Rev.4:11)

Let's look closer, shall we?

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11 KJV

The writer is declaring Christ worthy of glory and honor and power through the Father. All creation was created by and through Him but the power of the Father worked all these things for the pleasure of the Son. At least, this is my reading. The writer declares and affirms the legitimacy of Christ as King and Messiah and affirms his role in creation and that the purpose of creation is to glorify Him, the Son of Man. Some might argue that this verse applies to the Father, not the Son. I think that it refers to Christ because it is difficult to make sense of Revelations 5:8 otherwise.

Let's just deal with your insinuation that Calvinists have some kind of fetish over the glory of God as it relates to the sovereignty of God in salvation as revealed by the light of the Word. Naturally, no Calvinist thread can be considered complete without some quotes of Romans 9:

Romans 9

15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I don't see where God is indicating that He has any regard for your pro-choice philosophy of salvation in this passage.

Look at verse 17 where Paul describes that Pharoah was lifted up in order that God's power should be known throughout the earth. That was God's purpose in Pharoah's life. And because of God's action here, the story of Pharoah survives to this day. Where was Pharoah's "choice"? Pharoah was damned from all eternity but God's purpose in even allowing him life and temporal power was in fulfilling His plan for Israel. And God glorified Himself throughout the earth in the damnation of Pharoah. That was not His primary purpose. But it was His purpose for Pharoah.

Let's look at Paul's question in verse 21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?". I ask you the same question. Does God have the right and the power to make a man either for salvation or for damnation? We already know that Pharaoh (among many others) was created to be damned in the process of God's purpose with the nation of Israel. Can you answer Paul? Where was Pharaoh's choice?

Moving ahead, notice that colon at the end of verse 22. The KJV translators obviously felt that the proper rendering here was to indicate that one of the ways in which God makes known His glory and His mercy (and His love) to the Elect was His forbearance toward the evil of the Reprobate.

You might ask what purpose is served in God tolerating evil to glorify Himself for the sake of the Elect. And Paul answers you directly in verse 23.

Since I would expect you'll still cling to idol of man's "choice" as the ultimate object of all Creation (since you don't find the glory of God adequate), I'll give my own answer, one for which you can find innumerable examples of this very principle of which Paul writes here.

All of the Gentiles of the early church became members of Christ's flock under the New Covenant. And yet, they sprang from the heathen evil of dozens or hundreds of generations of evil and unsaved ancestors who committed grievous offences against God, even against the revelation of His natural law as we well know.

God tolerated the evil of those ancestors in order to bring forth that one single sheep for Christ's own flock. To apply this to modern times, ask yourself how many generations of heathen evil God has tolerated to bring forth the modern Christians of the African or Asian churches.

God has indeed "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:".

And why did He do this? "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Paul was a missionary to Gentiles, absolutely dedicated and passionate in his calling. He knew that this is the reason why we are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ to all the nations. Poor and unworthy vessels that we are, God has chosen, for His own glory, to use us to call forth the Elect from all nations. He doesn't need us and more than He actually needed Pharaoh. But it pleases Him to glorify Himself through our frail actions in obedience to Him.

And people still wonder why Calvinist denominations have such a strong record of missionary work given their theology. Calvinists took Paul seriously. Perhaps you can understand as well why OPie and I so strongly affirm the necessity of Preaching To Obey.

The purpose to God in all of this(according to Calvinism) is His own glorification.

The purpose to God in all of this (according to the Bible) is His own glorification. Gosh, it is right there in black and white (and red), depending upon your edition.