Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11 KJVThe writer is declaring Christ worthy of glory and honor and power through the Father. All creation was created by and through Him but the power of the Father worked all these things for the pleasure of the Son. At least, this is my reading. The writer declares and affirms the legitimacy of Christ as King and Messiah and affirms his role in creation and that the purpose of creation is to glorify Him, the Son of Man. Some might argue that this verse applies to the Father, not the Son. I think that it refers to Christ because it is difficult to make sense of Revelations 5:8 otherwise.
Romans 9I don't see where God is indicating that He has any regard for your pro-choice philosophy of salvation in this passage.
- 15
- For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
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- So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
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- For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
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- Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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- Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
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- Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
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- Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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- What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
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- And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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- Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I do not understand what you mean by this? I am saying that how God will be glorfied, not that He will be. That is the point of contention between the two schools regarding the ultimate purpose of God's creation.
The purpose to God in all of this(according to Calvinism) is His own glorification. With regard to salvation and other matters, the Bible repeatedly teaches us that God intends to show His eternal glory. And He demands that we acknowledge it. And this pattern of glorification will ultimately culminate at the Judgment Throne where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is King. And I suspect that the damned will confess it as well before they are cast into hell. You will not embarass a Calvinist by accusing him of a proper fear of God and acknowledging God's intent in glorifying Himself over and above all His creation.
Is the implication of the statement that the Arminan does not have a fear of God?
Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace. You may feel that God has diminished His glory by not choosing to offer universal salvation. If so, your KJV has done you little good. I do not judge God's methods.
George, from whence comes this tone? You might not feel it necessary to ask the question of why evil is in the universe, but a theological system that cannot answer that question has failed since that is the key question that must addressed and not just ignored,
A problem of evil is also a problem about the internal consistency of a theological position.The crucial question is not whether a theological position contradicts another theistic system or even whether it contradicts the atheists views, but whether it contradicts itself
This point has important implications for both theists and critics of theism. The theist must so structure a theology as to contain views of God, evil and human freedom which, when put together, do not contradict each other.
In particular, theists must avoid a system in which God is said to be both good and able to remove evil, despite the systems admission of the existence of evil. Such a system will most assuredly succumb to its problem of evil.(Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Ed.Walter A.Elwell, p.168)
That is the problem is what any theological system must address, why does evil exist with a good, holy, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, God?
Glory? Yes, but how will all of this Glorify Him?
This He did because it gave Him pleasure (Rev.4:11) Let's look closer, shall we? Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11 KJV The writer is declaring Christ worthy of glory and honor and power through the Father. All creation was created by and through Him but the power of the Father worked all these things for the pleasure of the Son. At least, this is my reading.
The Son was also involved in the actual creating (Co.1:16)
Now, in time, all things are turned over to the Son because He fulfilled the Plan as laid out in eternity (Mat.28, Ps.2). So, we have no disagreement on that, but those things were also created by Him and for him.
The writer declares and affirms the legitimacy of Christ as King and Messiah and affirms his role in creation and that the purpose of creation is to glorify Him, the Son of Man. Some might argue that this verse applies to the Father, not the Son. I think that it refers to Christ because it is difficult to make sense of Revelations 5:8 otherwise.
The entire Trinity will be glorified (1Cor.15:24-28) as well as the Son. The issue is not glorfication but why will they be glorfied?
Let's just deal with your insinuation that Calvinists have some kind of fetish over the glory of God as it relates to the sovereignty of God in salvation as revealed by the light of the Word.
Again, why the language? I did not insinuate anything. Glory is stated very clearly in the Scriptures as an result of God Plan. What I brought up was that the Calvinistic view was simplistic. There is far more to what God has achieved then just picking some and letting (or sending if one holds to double-predestination) most to the Lake of Fire.
Naturally, no Calvinist thread can be considered complete without some quotes of Romans 9:
you got that right! Since, these chapters are dealing with future of Israel and not individual salvation, we will move on.
I find it interesting that you never seem to get to vs.29-33 which deal with what the chapter is discussing, why Israel has been set aside and the Gentile accepted,
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousnes, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith,but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbled at that stumbingstone;
For as it is written, Behold I lay in Sion a stumlingstone and rock of offense and whoseover believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Did God want Israel to fall? No!
But to Israel he saith, All day long have I stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.(Rom10:21)
I don't see where God is indicating that He has any regard for your pro-choice philosophy of salvation in this passage.
You just do not want to see. You must stop at those verses and not read any more of the chapter.
Look at verse 17 where Paul describes that Pharoah was lifted up in order that God's power should be known throughout the earth. That was God's purpose in Pharoah's life. And because of God's action here, the story of Pharoah survives to this day. Where was Pharoah's "choice"? Pharoah was damned from all eternity but God's purpose in even allowing him life and temporal power was in fulfilling His plan for Israel. And God glorified Himself throughout the earth in the damnation of Pharoah. That was not His primary purpose. But it was His purpose for Pharoah.
God knew what Pharoah's free decision would be and still gave him time to repent, but instead he hardened. In fact, it states that Pharoah even hardened himself also! (Ex.8:32)
God will spend a spirit a strong delusion on those who resist His will giving them the 'fruit'of their own decisions (2 Thes.2:12,1Ki.22:22)
Let's look at Paul's question in verse 21: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?". I ask you the same question. Does God have the right and the power to make a man either for salvation or for damnation? We already know that Pharaoh (among many others) was created to be damned in the process of God's purpose with the nation of Israel. Can you answer Paul? Where was Pharaoh's choice?
Pharoah's choice was already foreseen by God, and all God did to harden Pharoah's heart was place His power before Him which forced a decision, a reaction on the part of Pharoah, hence Pharoah's heart to harden. In Ex.9:35 it states that Pharoah's heart was hardened with no 'agent' mentioned. The truth of God will either cause softening or hardening. Since, Egypt represented the greatest power of the world, God was showing to the world through Pharoah, by giving him that truth, that no one could resist Him (Ex 11:9). This carried into the other lands (Josh.2:9-10)
Bullinger, a Calvinist (although not Covenant, but HyperDispensationist) has this note: It was in each case God's clemency and forbearing goodness which produced the hardening.That goodness which 'leadeth to repentance' (Rom.2:4) just as the same sun which softens the wax hardens the clay.(Companion bible,p.78,n.21)
Moving ahead, notice that colon at the end of verse 22. The KJV translators obviously felt that the proper rendering here was to indicate that one of the ways in which God makes known His glory and His mercy (and His love) to the Elect was His forbearance toward the evil of the Reprobate.
leaving out the Calvinistic implications of how you phrased it, I see no problem in agreeing that God gets glory from those on whom He show mercy, as well as those who reject Him (Ps,76:10)
You might ask what purpose is served in God tolerating evil to glorify Himself for the sake of the Elect. And Paul answers you directly in verse 23. Since I would expect you'll still cling to idol of man's "choice" as the ultimate object of all Creation (since you don't find the glory of God adequate), I'll give my own answer, one for which you can find innumerable examples of this very principle of which Paul writes here. All of the Gentiles of the early church became members of Christ's flock under the New Covenant. And yet, they sprang from the heathen evil of dozens or hundreds of generations of evil and unsaved ancestors who committed grievous offences against God, even against the revelation of His natural law as we well know. God tolerated the evil of those ancestors in order to bring forth that one single sheep for Christ's own flock. To apply this to modern times, ask yourself how many generations of heathen evil God has tolerated to bring forth the modern Christians of the African or Asian churches. God has indeed "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:". And why did He do this? "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Paul was a missionary to Gentiles, absolutely dedicated and passionate in his calling. He knew that this is the reason why we are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ to all the nations. Poor and unworthy vessels that we are, God has chosen, for His own glory, to use us to call forth the Elect from all nations. He doesn't need us and more than He actually needed Pharaoh. But it pleases Him to glorify Himself through our frail actions in obedience to Him. And people still wonder why Calvinist denominations have such a strong record of missionary work given their theology. Calvinists took Paul seriously. Perhaps you can understand as well why OPie and I so strongly affirm the necessity of Preaching To Obey.
Frankly, I do not know what the above has to do with anything? The Gentiles were always intended to be brought in to God's mercy. Witness Jonah,also, Rom.15:9-16,Is.11:10,49:6. The issue that Paul was addressing was a third group-Church, which is a combination of Jew and Gentile (1Cor.10:32) the Body of Christ (Eph.1:23) His Bride (Eph.5).
What you stated above does not answer the key question on why some and not all if God could save all.
It is to this question that the Calvinist have no answer. It is to them an inscrutable mystery