For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[CCWoody]

Please attempt to reconcile the plain meaning of the words of Revelation 3:20-21 and the Calvinistic position on predestination.

Absolutely! The Calvinist Position on Predestination:

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified.

Now he flipps back in his copy of the Book to find Revelation; yep, right were it was the last time I read verse from it. Case close; Biblical Predestination established and fully reconciled with every single other verse in scripture.

Care to define foreknow for me Biblically?

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Still waiting.... (Post #405 might help you out)

[Codie]

I have a question,if you don't mind.If you don't believe in a "supernatural" moral authority,then what's your incentive for doing the right thing?

[Doctor Doom]

I don't mind at all.

I need no incentive. I do the right thing because my moral code - self-chosen and based on objective reality - says that any evasion of reality (which includes assuming the "right" to violate the rights of others through theft, fraud, murder, etc.) is immoral.

[connectthedots]

You need to get out more often. These people are all around you.

You need to learn how to ask follow-up questions.

[PleaseNoMore]

Of course He knew! That is the wondrous beauty of it. He knew that His creation would grieve Him and that many would not follow Him AND STILL He made a way of escape for us! Is that not the mercy that David speaks of in the Psalms? Is that not UNCONDITIONAL love?? Christ was extending that VERY mercy on the while He was dying on the cross.

The Bible is very clear about "whosoever will". Anyone that will accept is "whosoever will".

[RnMomof7]

Of course He knew!

So if he knew and chose not to intervene did He not by His lack of action predestine it to happen??

[connectthedots]

So is C S Lewis your spiritual guide?

No. The writings of C.S. Lewis are not 'scripture'; however, he is widely recognized to have been the greatest Christian apologist of the 20th Century, even by many noted Calvinists.

Are the writings of Calvinists your spiritual guide? Note that I did not say John Calvin since what many Calvinists have argued on this thread goes far beyond what Calvin actually wrote. Calvin was not nearly as confident in his writings as many of the Calvinists on this thread seem to be. Calvin had many doubts about the things he wrote because some of his conclusions troubled him a great deal.

Have you read either Calvin's Institutes or Mere Christianity? Have you read Edwin Palmer's the Five Points of Calvinism? I've read them all. Do you even know for what Edwin Palmer is most widely known?

Is it possible CS Lewis is wrong ?

Sure. I have no problem stating that a man's interpretation of scripture could be wrong, something very rare amongst Calvinists. Are going to attempt to claim that your interpretation and understanding of the nature of God is somehow superior to that of C.S. Lewis? Reminds me of an old joke, "You can tell a Dutchman, but you can't tell him much." Is it possible that Calvinists are wrong?

[PleaseNoMore]

No, not in the sense that he "predestined" some to be saved and some to be damned. He clearly states in His word that He desires ALL to be saved. He has said or done nothing contrary to that desire. God being all knowing, did know what would happen in the course of man's existance. I do not doubt that. However, man has been given the choice of whether to accept Him or not. I believe that your responses are bordering on semantics.

[PleaseNoMore]

Another response to your question would be that He DID choose to intervene ( He sent a Saviour ). He sent His only begotten Son. That makes your point moot.

[Codie]

However, your "objective reality" may not be the same as the fellow across the street.Then what? Who winds up being the the final arbitrator on what's right?

[RnMomof7]

Are the writings of Calvinists your spiritual guide? Note that I did not say John Calvin since what many Calvinists have argued on this thread goes far beyond what Calvin actually wrote. Calvin was not nearly as confident in his writings as many of the Calvinists on this thread seem to be. Calvin had many doubts about the things he wrote because some of his conclusions troubled him a great deal.

Have you read either Calvin's Institutes or Mere Christianity? Have you read Edwin Palmer's the Five Points of Calvinism? I've read them all. Do you even know for what Edwin Palmer is most widely known?

NO I have read the Bible..(does that count:>)

It is on my list of things to do (read the Institutes) right now I am in the middle of 3 books.....

All I do is ask questions..that is my lot in life (as opposed to lot's wife:>))Sorry that silliness just jumped out

I believe a plain reading of scripture reinforces the reform position. I do not believe that it is a matter of salvation..but it should be of the utmost importance to every Christian to give all the glory to God for his salvation..

[Doctor Doom]

However, your "objective reality" may not be the same as the fellow across the street.Then what?

Objective reality is the same for everyone. Closing one's eyes and wishing it weren't there doesn't make it go away. It is there.

Some may wish to evade reality, and mostly this is harmless as far as my rights are concerned. But when such evasions intrude upon my rights, I exercise my right to self-defense.

[Diamond]

After all, I don't (and neither do you) believe for one minute the idea that Buddha ascended into a higher plane because of his Enlightenment, but there are many things in Buddhist teachings we both regard as true and good.

I wholeheartedly agree. There are many self-evident truths recognized by people from all epochs and backgrounds.

I guess I'm just approaching this from the perspective that historical events are also truths. Christianity is not just a set of right principles. The disciples were making a truth claim that a man who was executed came out of his grave alive. That truth claim is either true or false. What happened to the body? The answer to that question concerns a phenomenon of space/time history that must be taken into account if one wants to apprehend truth more fully. Gotama Buddha lies still moldering in his grave.

[fortheDeclaration]

Not if you could have prevented it ftD..

Not, if you want your 'children' to have the ability to choose! You know as a mother that you have had to stand back and allow your children to make decisions even bad ones.

God placed us under Adam's sin after the Fall so that we all could be savable based on what the 2nd Adam did (Rom.5). Now, it is up to man to make a decision. God had to allow freedom to run its course, even allowing the fall of both Satan and Adam if He (God) was going to have a real relationship with His rational creatures. No freedom, no Fall, no Freedom, no relationships. That was the dilemna that God faced! Look what it cost Him, His own death! See how seriously God takes His own desire to share His love with His creation. It is God who would not have gotten anything out of making robots out of mankind. Nor, does He develop a relationship by making anyone love Him. Would you want that type of relationship with your children?

Calvinism removes any semblence of the reality that it is God who wants to share Himself with His creation. Just look at the OT peace offerings. God wanted the Jews to come among Him and rejoice-freely, not out of compulsion (same as giving).

This Plan is about what God wants, not what man thinks He wants. The issue is not about sovereignty, but Love and how a perfect God can Love finite creatures who fail. That was the problem He faced. It was the Cross that resolved it by satisfying the demands of His Justice and now all can freely to Him, if they will.

God is always seeking man, it is man that is running from Him, like Adam did in the Garden. Yet, God came to Adam and gave Him the covering which Adam received (did Adam work for that covering, or did he claim merit for taking it?) No, Adam and Eve believed what God said about the coming Messiah (Gen.3:15) and by faith, took on the covering that another died to give them.

Do you see any works or merit in it? Did God force them to take the coats? You either see God as a real Person who desires to share Love or as some cold, distant King, whose only concern is about 'glory'. God will receive Glory because He has accomplished what He wanted a reconcilation with His creatures and creation. The 'similitude' mentioned in James 3:9 is the 'likeness' that God created us in Genesis. We did lose the 'Image' (spiritual life) but not the 'likeness' which is intellect, sensibilty and will, those were corrupted but not totally lost.

[fortheDeclaration]

You do need to give God more credit "Before you were born I knew you..."

That was not the issue (I think you have been hanging out with Doc too much). The issue you raised was that those who reject total depratvity, make man totally free. That is the Peligian view, not the Arminian one. It is a debators technique that sets up a straw man. As one who rejects total depravity, I do accept depravity, that is man is limited in the choices he can make, based on certain limits God has made for him. But, (despite what Doc says about determinism), man can still make choices within that sphere of freedom (hence, his responsibilty of rejecting what is clearly known about God in nature (Rom.1:20, Ps.19). Because our choices are limited doesn't mean we have no choice.

As your children grew up, their sphere of freedom increased, but there was always limits. Nevertheless, within that sphere they could make decisions to obey or disobey the rules (which were for their happiness) you set for them. God creating us with 'limits' does not make us any less human which means we all have a will and a responsiblty to use it.

[RnMomof7]

No, not in the sense that he "predestined" some to be saved and some to be damned. He clearly states in His word that He desires ALL to be saved. He has said or done nothing contrary to that desire. God being all knowing, did know what would happen in the course of man's existence. I do not doubt that. However, man has been given the choice of whether to accept Him or not. I believe that your responses are bordering on semantics.

I believe it is Christ's desire for all to be saved..His blood is sufficient for the sins of the world.But only those that the Father sends will come

John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Notice that they left after hearing this..did you ever wonder why?

I do not believe that the old time Calvinists on FR would disagree with you that repentance is a choice..the question would be why they made that choice? Why do some repent and some not? Why did those men walk away from Jesus ??Why did some like Stephan die for His name?

Why do some knock at the door and others not?

In our human pride we discount the effect of the drawing power of the Grace of God and claim all that glory for ourselves..

[fortheDeclaration]

I do the right thing because my moral code - self-chosen and based on objective reality -

An Objectivist?

[CCWoody]

You either see God as a real Person who desires to share Love or as some cold, distant King, whose only concern is about 'glory'.

I'll take the Man I met, thank you. BTW, your Genesis 3:15 verse; so close to being right you were (Define received properly and you'd be there)....

P.S. Your statement about God's Glory shows that you know nothing about His Love or His Glory or our purpose.

[Doctor Doom]

Close enough.

[fortheDeclaration]

So if he knew and chose not to intervene did He not by His lack of action predestine it to happen??

Yes, He allowed them to happen, but those who did are the ones responsible since they chose using the gift that God gave them free will which is (to go against Doc's determinism again) an uncaused cause.

When God created rational creatures He did something that would cost Him dearly (but He was willing to pay the price) He brought into the Universe creatures who could say no as well as yes from no other source but their own will. Love demanded this, if God was to get the pleasure He wanted from His creation. God is not afraid of free will as Calvinists are. God knows He is Sovereign and has created His plan with Free will factored in. God will accomplish what He has decided to accomplish and the price He is willing to pay to do so is represented by the Cross. It is Calvinism that belittles God's greatness by limiting His ability to reach fallen man and give him a choice to accept or reject Him. How much more simple it is just to say 'God chooses who He will and leaves the others'. God is far more wise than that simplistic, nonBiblical approach (Rom 11:33-36) The God of Augustine and Calvin far too small to be the God of the Bible.