For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You got me...eitherway...salvation can indeed be lost if you aquire it through faith then you can lose it in unbelief or out and out disobedience without repentance. Let others seek for quantifications.

Okay. Did King David at any time lose the Salvation-indwelling of the Holy Spirit when he committed adultery and murder, and did not repent for a full year? Just curious.

Hehe...what?

I'll repeat the question. Read closely, and answer. A one word answer only is all I ask, "true" or "false":

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

[RnMomof7]

"I would ask why does He save any??" AMEN!

Unfortunately most of the Christian world think they deserve it!

[VaBthang4]

"Okay. Did King David at any time lose the Salvation-indwelling of the Holy Spirit when he committed adultery and murder, and did not repent for a full year? Just curious."

Are you serious? Do you comprehend what "salvation" is? It is not the same thing as an indwelling of the holy spirit. King David could not fall under the new covenant? C'mon man, you are reaching now.....go reload.

You'll forgive me but I cant follow your second question.

[fortheDeclaration]

Bad form! Here, let me correct you: God has determined that all men (who are not able to do so, according to the Bible) should seek the Lord. There, that is much better. Unfortunately for you Acts 17 does not say what you think it says nor does it say what you want it to say nor does it say what your God hating theology needs for it to say. It simply says that men should seek. It does not say that men do seek God.

Correct, it just says that God has made it possible (hapily)

That would mean that man is not so 'dead' that he cannot respond if God seeks him

It does not say that men are able to seek God. It does say that men should seek God.

Alright, and it states that man should seek God ...and find Him

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Woody, you certainly left Acts quickly. So, Acts 17:27 states that we should seek God (if perhaps) we might find Him? Right?(Is that how you read it?

Rom.7:18 does not contradict Acts 17 so that would not be the one to go to deal with Acts 17.

Note also the blindness mentioned, they might feel after Him, hence the need of 2Cor.4:6.

Let us look at what Rom 7:18 really says (and thank you for citing the verse)

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not

Now, context shows that has to do with a believer not an unbeliever. Look at verse 22

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man

Now, no Calvinist is going to say that any unbeliever delights in the law of God-are they?

The natural man does not have the will to do good until he is born of God. Your protestations otherwise noted!

Well, you and Zadok can both close your eyes and hope the verse goes away, but you haven't dealt with it, your Calvinist presuppostions notwithstanding.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Are you serious? Do you comprehend what "salvation" is? It is not the same thing as an indwelling of the holy spirit. King David could not fall under the new covenant? C'mon man, you are reaching now.....go reload.

Okay. Two questions, then:

• Are unrepentant murderers and adulterers indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
• If a Saved Man commits murder and adultery, and is not Repentant, does he remain Saved?

Thanks.

You'll forgive me but I cant follow your second question.

Okay, first, try reading the Scripture...

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

---

Now, we'll break it into three questions, concerning the specific evidence of this passage:

• Did the omniscient God foreknow that Tyre and Sidon would freely choose TO REPENT in the case of His performance of Miracles like unto those He performed in Chorazin and Bethsaida?

• And did the omniscient God foreknow Tyre and Sidon would freely choose NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles?

• And did the omnipotent God CHOOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew?

[VaBthang4]

"Are unrepentant murderers and adulterers indwelt by the Holy Spirit?"

I am not quite sure what that has to do with a Man's ability to lose his salvation........so you tell me.

"If a Saved Man commits murder and adultery, and is not Repentant, does he remain Saved?"

I dont know the importance of the crimes listed...sin is sin...
I dont know where the threshold would be in that case though....he obviously would have opportunity to repent. I would suppose if he didnt repent then that disobedience would open the door for Satan to begin to darken his understanding until line upon line he could fully return to unbelief.

I just dont know at what point the Lord deliniates between the person remaining in faith and then crossing back into unbelief.

I have given up on your second question.

[fortheDeclaration]

Ephesians 2 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Et tu?

Please cite the entire passage, how are we quickened?

For by grace are ye saved through faith...

Rom10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Faith precedes regeneration.

Thank you for citing the verse. Actually, the best texts to give the appearance that regeneration could precede faith are Tit.3:5 and Rev.1:5 since faith does not show up in the passages. The only problem is that washing is not quickening(Eph.2),. The Non-Calvinist would associate washing with Santification, but those are the two best, I believe, in defending your view.

[fortheDeclaration]

Why does a non-believer become a believer? What causes this change of mind?

Rom 10:13-15, 2Cor.4:6(illumnation so the Gospel becomes understandable)

By the way what did you expect I would say on how someone is saved?

[fortheDeclaration]

Gosh, so, clear it up for all of us. Were you are liar then and does God know our innermost thoughts?

I tell you what Woody, why don't you produce the entire post so we will see what we were talking about and how I phrased it beyond two sentences.

God knows all our thoughts before we think them (Ps 139).

Now, why don't produce the entire post and show that I do not believe that.

Thou shalt not bear false witness(Rom.13:9)

[fortheDeclaration]

God has the ability to stop sin and does not..instead He allows man the freedom to sin without His restraining Grace.He allows man to bring damnation on Himself.

That is correct, that is permissive will. This goes againist the traditional view that everything happens must be directive since no wills can resist His.

If you allow a permissive will you are saying that God allowed rational creatures to oppose His will, and decreed that!

[fortheDeclaration]

Free Will: man enjoys the uninhibited freedom of action to do whatsoever he Wants to do, independent of any internal or external compulsion or constraint

How can you say no internal compulsion when the flesh is compelling even for a regenerate man (Rom.7:24)

That definition (no citation) is meaningless.

[fortheDeclaration]

Miracles can be a Means of regenerating Grace, as Paul would affirm. God has many Means of Grace and may use them however He sees fit.

The issue is that the 'miracles' could not do anything on a dead man (as Calvin defines him). He would have to be regenerated before the miracles could be received.

That is your dogma,not mine. Now, the passage says the miracles would have moved these people to respond-that is all.

The fact that the Lord brought up the issue that they would have repented shows that the decision was theirs in rejecting what was offered to them at first, and it would have been theirs had those miracles been done. Free will is all over that passage. Hey, ftD, for the sake of discussion, I am willing to grant you all of this. You know why? Because you have made an admission which you cannot escape, and that is that there is still no way around the fact that God absolutely pre-determined by His prior, sovereign Choice just exactly what Tyre and Sidon's free will decisions would be. Thus, your statement becomes: The fact that the Lord brought up the issue that they would have repented shows that the decision was theirs in rejecting what was offered to them at first, and it would have been theirs had those miracles been done, and God pre-determined from before Time that their free-will decision was going to be to NOT Repent and be Damned, by His decision that He would NOT perform the action of Grace (a display of miracles) which He knew would predestine them to freely-will repentance. As such, God's absolute predestination pre-determined that their decision would be to NOT Repent. I can, for the sake of discussion, grant you every point you've made.

Thank you, but I will make my own statements. Here is the Biblical way to look at it. God foreknew that those cities would reject of their own free will God's free offer of grace (as seen in Sodom). That becomes part of God's Plan, He let them go their own way, honoring their choice.

The rebuke to the Jews is for their decision in freely rejecting God's greater grace (miracles). The Jews actions were also foreseen and therefore part of God's Plan, yet not part of God's directive will, but permissive will.

How does that sound?

And you still cannot escape Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11. The words of Christ bind you to acknowledge Absolute Predestination; though you rage against them still, you cannot escape them, hard as you try.

No? I just did

Your admissions thus far have already annihilated your objections against the reality of Absolute sovereign Predestination, and you know it well; and now I shall never let you escape that fact. "I am constant as the northern star, Of whose true-fix'd and resting qualities there is no fellow in the firmament".

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes(Pr.12:15)

[fortheDeclaration]

Calvin is very careful. As a methodical theologian and exegete, his efforts to avoid overstatement or understatement of scripture are almost insuperable. I'm speaking here of his methods, not necessarily his conclusions to which you obviously object. He was in this sense, I think, at least the equal of Augustine and more consistent in his methods and principles than Luther proved to be.

When you push Calvinism back to its premises and ask why the Calvinist has no answer. All the words spent on defending the points are wasted because ultimately the system has no final answer that deals with what God is doing and why He is doing it.

The purpose to God in all of this(according to Calvinism) is His own glorification.

Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace.

This He did because it gave Him pleasure (Rev.4:11)

[zadok]

Your position was that if after being saved, I do not seek forgiveness from God for transgressions then I never was saved in the first place.

You have misunderstood my position. I am sorry if I was not more clear about this earlier, I was occupied with other things.

I do not believe that a true believer can lose his or her salvation.

If a person claiming to be a believer does not willingly repent of his or her sin, they were never a believer to begin with.

[zadok]

"Actually, the best texts to give the appearance that regeneration could precede faith are Tit.3:5 and Rev.1:5"

What about John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Tares]

Rom 10:13-15, 2Cor.4:6(illumnation so the Gospel becomes understandable)

What if the preacher had not been sent? What if God had not commanded the light to shine out of darkness, and not given the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ? Would anyone believe then?

[fortheDeclaration]

Gosh, so, clear it up for all of us. Were you are liar then and does God know our innermost thoughts?

look what I found my old post!

To 'foreknow' means exactly what the english says it means -to KNOW (HAVE UNDERSTANDING OF, AWARENESS OF) SOMETHING BEFORE SOMETHING ELSE! You know the only way your usage would work would be to say God knew the most private thoughts that we would have,(right here is where the cut was made) one being, who would respond to the Gospel and who would not.

Look at what you liars left out, the fact that I had stated that if your definition of Foreknowledge were true, then God would 'foreknow' who would respond to the Gospel and who would not.

I wonder who could have snipped off the part about 'who would respond to the Gospel and who would not'

Even so, come Lord Jesus! 259 Posted on 08/22/2001 11:20:59 PDT by fortheDeclaration [ Reply | Private Reply | To 210 | Top | Last ]

[CCWoody]

There are MANY "good" people who are not born again, never heard of Jesus Christ, and still yet would rival even your "goodness".

Well, I'll use the Bible as a guide for what is good and what is not. Romans 3:10-12,23

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God. They have all gone from the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ...for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The Bible says it; I believe it. Do you?

Furthermore, the Bible also says that our conscience must be sprinkled "clean" from such "dead works" into faith works and the service of God:

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God...

Hebrews 9:13-15 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Your statement is absurd on another levels as well for my works that are good are now not my own, but Christ who works through me:

John 15:1-5 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Christians are commanded to go into the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature. How many "Christians" do you think actually do this? do you?

Of course not! I have been prefected forever, but my sanctification is not yet complete (Hebrews 10:14). Therefore, there is not a day that goes by that I do not impose my fleshy free will over my spiritual will to serve Him.

Romans 7:14-18 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I know not. For what I would do, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law, that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.

And for this I am sorry:

When we look to Jesus dying on the cross we end our dalliance with sin, and utterly abhor the cause of so great suffering to so dear a Saviour. Every wound of Jesus is an argument against sin. We never know the full evil of our iniquities till we see what it cost the Redeemer to put them away.

My evil has been laid bare before me and I know the cost.

[fortheDeclaration]

now, lets see who did the snipping.

To: fortheDeclaration You know the only way your usage would work would be to say God knew the most private thoughts that we would have, one being, who would respond to the Gospel and who would not. - fortheDeclaration

Is there anybody besides fortheDeclaration that believes that God doesn't know our innermost private thoughts? Romans? Wesleyans? Anybody? 130 Posted on 08/22/2001 18:11:13 PDT by CCWoody

Now who is it you had the experience meeting Woody?

[Frumanchu]

Yet, the glory of saving millions when He could have saved billions seems an empty glory. Could not the glory relate to the fact that despite opposition He achieved His goals, to provide salvation for all (even though all will not accept it) and still perserve the will of His creatures to respond freely to His grace.

The glory is diminished in your sight because you would have done it differently. But you are not the sovereign God of all creation. He will have mercy on who He has mercy and will harden who He hardens. When we think of this as being an arbitrary matter, it is unfair. But God does not do this arbitrarily.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6)

"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory." (Eph 1:11,12)

Our will, subject to our sinful nature, will always rebel against God. The Israelites had every reason to love God and follow His commandments in terms of God acting visibly and directly in front of them. So many say that if God were acting visibly today in the same manner that so many more would believe, but Israel proved that false. The total depravity of man can be seen on the news every day. Unless we were called specifically, who would believe? If Scripture said He chose whom He called by the flip of a coin or at the whim of His feelings that moment, I could see logic in protesting the unfairness of those actions. Even then, I would still have no choice but to accept the sovereign will of God. But we are told He chose us according to His good pleasure (for what other kind of pleasure does God have) and the purpose of His will. I don't shudder because I know not what that purpose is. Rather I take comfort knowing that God's purpose is just and holy and that it's only by His grace and mercy that I have my salvation.

God bless!