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1 posted on 12/30/2001 5:51:19 PM PST by mvpel (mvpel@yahoo.com)
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To: mvpel
Just another way to subtly make kids feel sorry for the poor Aztecs who were slaughtered and all by the mean old Christian Spaniards.
2 posted on 12/30/2001 5:57:18 PM PST by 3catsanadog
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To: mvpel
The 9-11 twin towers attack was just high-tech human sarifice to Allah.
3 posted on 12/30/2001 6:07:34 PM PST by spycatcher
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To: mvpel
Aztecs were the masters of human sacrifice until A Hitler and company came along.
4 posted on 12/30/2001 6:08:20 PM PST by dennisw
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To: mvpel
And the Aztecs invented flying machines and had telephones way before the Spaniards came. < /sarcasm>

Little Juan may not be able to read after graduating from public school, but at least he comes away with a whole lot of (unearned) self-respect.

5 posted on 12/30/2001 6:12:21 PM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: mvpel
You can't have cultural relativism without finding some way to excuse Aztec human sacrifice. Trouble is, if you're going to excuse that, you're also going to have to find some way to excuse the Nazis and the Holocaust, and bin Laden and his Islamofascism
6 posted on 12/30/2001 6:14:35 PM PST by aristeides
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To: mvpel
The politically correct crowd never looks at the Aztecs from the perspective of the OTHER Indians, the ones who were cruelly enslaved and ritually sacrificed. The Aztecs were evil, and their culture was evil. The Aztecs were weak because they were evil (the other Indians joined the Spaniards and rose up against them).

Just think of the Aztecs as being the "Mexican Taliban"

8 posted on 12/30/2001 6:20:09 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: mvpel
Revelations in a letter to the editor of the area "mainstream" daily (by a junior-high student!) of a "lifeboat ethics" minicourse were a major cause of the 2-to-1 defeat of a school-bond referendum in the Greensboro, North Carolina government schools within the past decade.

Know what your kids are being brainwashed with - if you can't get them out of the government schools totally!

East Stroudsburg government-school scandal

12 posted on 12/30/2001 6:27:42 PM PST by glc1173@aol.com
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To: mvpel
7th graders aren't ready for this kind of issue anyways. Plus, it really isn't within the realm of our schools to deal with this kind of stuff in the K-12 years anyways.

Maybe, maybe as a senior, but only in a balanced manner. At that point, the schools should report, the student should decide. And it should be reported not as an alternative to whatever beliefs the student has been given by their parents, but as a simple report of what Aztecs did. It is important to study history, but it is wrong to attach a cause. And, of course, it is wrong to only study it out of context.

14 posted on 12/30/2001 6:34:59 PM PST by meyer
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To: mvpel
Students will read two versions about the Aztec Sun, complete a Venn diagram and visit web sites that provide background on Aztec religious beliefs and the practice of human sacrifice. They will write a persuasive letter taking the point of view of an [cannibalistic] Aztec noble or a Spanish missionary and create a cinquain poem.

Actually, this, if done correctly, is a very good approach, much better than just telling kids "It's bad." Having students play Devil's advocate - which is essentially what a persuasive letter is, and offering them a choice of which side to take or making them test the issue from both sides, will make them think more carefully about their views on right and wrong. Playing Devil's advocate as pro-sacrifice does not mean you are sympathetic to human sacrifice, but it is good training and preparation for learning how to counter the viewppoint that such things are acceptable. People who play Devil's advocate learn to predict how the other side will respond in a real debate. They can see things from the other guy's perspective, without falling prey to it. Know thy enemy, as they say. There is no better way to know him than by mentally imagining yourself to be in his shoes.

The ACLU or some Pagans, on the other hand, will get upset because the kids could choose to take the missionary's part. They might complain that this violated their sacred views on separation of church and state, or forbid students from using arguments from the Bible as a missionary would.

The only problem with this comes in if a public school teacher tries to make the two views morally equivalent. Just having kids try to argue either side does not do that, since kids will debate it out and so, discover the truth. Kids aren't as stupid as some people think they are, BTW.

16 posted on 12/30/2001 6:49:44 PM PST by piasa
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To: mvpel
There are of course similarities, and I found one of your article links unobjectionable. However the one by the student shows a great lack of knowledge about catholocism in critical areas. I would hope the teacher points out these corrections.

As others have noted, human sacrifice was also present in the West in some cultures, quite often in matriarchical and land-based cultures. It was also done in the Middle East and as others have pointed out, early Judaism can be seen as stressing a move away from human sacrifice to animal and then, in Christianity to the paschal mystery in Jesus's self-sacrifice.

It's an interesting subject and I applaud comparative religious study at this level. It has to be carefully taught, though, as you point out.

17 posted on 12/30/2001 7:14:11 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: mvpel; *Academia list
Story file containing an explanation of the Aztec need for human sacrifice.

I am speechless.

19 posted on 12/30/2001 7:38:23 PM PST by denydenydeny
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To: mvpel
This reminds me of the movie major league, when Sorono wants to sacrifise a live chicken before a game, and they bring him a bucket of KFC.
27 posted on 12/30/2001 9:34:48 PM PST by Sonny M
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To: mvpel
This type of thing did not just drop out of the sky onto San Diego. You can be sure that some foundation or the Dept. of Education is behind this.

Disgusting. And a way to prep children to rationalize abortion. At 1 million abortions/year, we make the Aztecs look like pikers.

30 posted on 12/31/2001 1:51:16 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: mvpel
"In ancient times, it was the Caananite culture that was so depraved and corrupt that it merited utter destruction by the command of G-d. In the 1500's and 1600's, when the Spaniards arrived to find 20,000 human beings being slaughtered atop pyramids every year by having their heart ripped out, that distinction fell to the Aztec culture which was subsequently destroyed, its adherents either converted away from their murderous, cannabalistic practices, or killed."

I was caught off gaurd by a liberal friend of mine a while back about the Spanish actions and relationship with the Aztecs. I wish I would have brought up that point. His mind would have blown at my lack of regard for the native culture. The next conversation will be fun. Thanks.

38 posted on 12/31/2001 5:21:49 AM PST by Wrigley
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To: mvpel
I guess it's ok to talk about religion if it's done on a secular level?? And it's ok to talk about human sacrifice, but please, NO ONE draw a picture of a gun!! Talk about mixed messages!!
39 posted on 12/31/2001 5:46:09 AM PST by kassie
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To: mvpel; weegee; Registered; RightWhale; Forgiven_Sinner; MHGinTN; Aquinasfan; Wrigley; senorita...
In what follows -- and I apologize for it being so long -- I try to connect this item on multiculturalism, and several of the responses, to a major shift in public policy that few talk about, but about which this item provides a glaring example and warning.
Do you agree with our Elite that limiting world population growth is the paramount issue of the Twenty-first Century?
And if you do, does that make you Anti-God?

Note: I considered making this a question in its own thread, but feared it would attract too many disrupters that way. I thought the many thoughtful respondents found here might be able to handle the question better than the whole forum for now.


question by mvpel: Do you know who's running your schools?
Entrenched bureaucrats imbued with elitist thinking of course. How can you expect something else of increasingly remotely controlled contemporary government schools? Is it not consistent with the moral code switch into which we are incrementally being indoctrinated? So, our children are understandably a target.

Can you recall when our society's paradigm officially shifted from preserving the greatest quantity of innocent human life to ensuring the quality of human life?
Answer: It never was announced; but the current approach ought to be plain as day by now.

I believe it unofficially began around 1965 with a publication by the Club of Rome. Subject: Too many people on the planet.

Which brings me to the next two responses:


passage by IceCreamSocialist: 22:8: And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering
This set the new standard, the lesson and the test of faith for one and every man: we should sacrifice no innocents for our own sins. and
passage by weegee and Forgiven_Sinner: [22:13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns
In other words, as Abraham had promised Isaac, God did provide. (Note: you can find biblical scholars saying Satan snared the ram's horns in that thicket, preventing the ram from being Johnny-on-the-spot, just as our troubles and uncertainty often stymie us.)


comment by AnnaZ When the anti-religionists quote the story of Isaac and Abraham as showing the unloving nature of God I always have to laugh
Yes, laugh due to your own faith in God AnnaZ. But please not for the snare the scoffers set for those you love but have not yet reached.

Believers in God have faith that God will always provide them the means to measure up to His expectations. God said "be fruitful and multiply." He did not he say "but don't go crazy." We are simply told to have faith: "God will provide."

To avoid this question, which is arguable but nowhere near definitive enough for social planners, the intelligentsia introduced "God is Dead." And that was followed with the "enlightened" belief that God never even existed.

Well, this clearly places believers squarely at odds with those who doubt, and more fatally, puts them in enmity with those who are convinced He doesn't exist. If He doesn't exist, He cannot provide.

"Listen to us" our greatest minds, the new gods, will say when they dare. You must stop producing children because the planet already has 10 times too many people. "We have replaced God. Stop being fruitful. It's now okay and normal to adopt lifestyles which reduce the chances of pregnancy. It has become public policy to promote homosexuality like we once did heterosexuality. It is now almost time to make heterosexuality what homosexuality once was. We must do it for the children! Their "quality" of life must not suffer. (Well, for what children remain anyway.)

So take careful note of the spewings of the most virulent environmentalists. Their talk about how the world really should have no more than one half billion people should be viewed with more than a little suspicion. Given all the bloodletting of the Twentieth century, one can see that the "intelligentsia" has only been warming up to the task at hand. Their lack of protest when they could stop much of that bloodletting should be a warning to us all.

If the extent of such misanthropic thinking in the powerful is not the very essence of what it could mean to be Anti-God, how can one conceive what Anti-God really means? Whether or not one believes in God, there can be no doubt that such leaders, left unfettered, will make the Aztecs look like rank amateurs.

Oh, and by all means stop protecting the innocent! Since we have too many people, any exra who exist CANNOT be innocent. Every extra human being on the planet is a threat to our "quality of life." To the elitist, the ones who plan to remain on the planet, this is logical and just. It's just because they say it is.

It certainly looks like C. S. Lewis was right. We appear to be at the threshold that "The Abolition of Man" predicted. Those in power, those above it all, the superhumans, view those below as subjects somehow no longer human. Man, as we know him, is about to cease to exist.

We mere mortals, we who are no longer human, are therefore no longer vested with "certain inalienable rights" grante to us by a creator who -- how convenient -- also no longer exists.

Once the thinkers closest to the higher levels of our government began to fear unchecked world population growth, a conflict with the religious community was inevitable.

This all helps explain the gradual introduction of multiculturalism, even of cultures long dead -- like the Aztecs -- that found human destruction favorable.

And how about the media propagated buzz of "who are we to say which culture is better." And barely a peep out of the highest religious leaders! It appears that too many religious leaders were co-opted to this way of thinking. How many have become the new Pharisees? How else to explain their silence?

If the majority of us have begun to believe that cultures which worship death are on an equal moral footing with the Judeo-Christian ethic which helped establish the justice system of our great constitutional republic, we may be too far into decline to recover. Who will give up without a fight?

Thus the religious need to understand what is at stake. What has been an unspeakable thought for the last 35 years needs to be discussed openly. Especially if the religious think it is their duty to try and prevent the onslaught of Armageddon. But if we are to believe that God will provide, how can we remain passive?

Does God wish the Godly to prevent Armageddon or to give in? If they give in, are they really Godly? If the Godly uncritically permit man to forcibly limit procreation, to go against his explict wishes, does this make them and the country Anti-God? Are they God's soldiers or are they not?

In summary:
A fundamental disparity appears to set up the battleground, the reason, the cause celebre, for the confrontation predicted in Revelations known as Armageddon.

Even non-believers ought be able to see how this conflict sets the God scoffers against the God believers. If Armageddon is inevitable -- and many believe it is, as if we really don't have free choice -- then few will rise to protest. And that in and of itself appears to be unforgiveable sin.

Yes indeed DoughtyOne, "the sad thing is these people totally miss the significance of Abraham's willingness to obey God."

48 posted on 01/01/2002 8:55:53 PM PST by Avoiding_Sulla
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hmmm what I notice is that the kids were asked to write about one side or the OTHER. I think we need to drop both the choices and work on reading comprehension.

Because..since parents have nothing do to do with what their kids' schoolwork is, and would never be able to help them choose which side to take.

50 posted on 01/02/2002 4:13:14 AM PST by KneelBeforeZod
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To: mvpel
I was just going to say that you as a Jew might be interested in knowing that Joseph Campbell of PBS and academia fame tried this against the Jews too (and Christians). I watched him once on PBS (I've since repented) as he said that the Jews and Christians could claim no moral high ground for their God because of Abraham and Isaac, but IceCreamSocialist already made my point anyway.
52 posted on 01/02/2002 6:31:06 AM PST by Prodigal Daughter
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To: mvpel
Well done:

What also needs to be said, is while the Spaniards thought of conversion to Christianity for these new visitors, the Aztecs were thinking of castrating these men and making them eunuchs for the harem of women servicing the God-King.

But then again, why bother w/ petty facts when the purpose is to bash Western Civilisation.

55 posted on 01/02/2002 11:40:15 AM PST by Helms
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To: mvpel
but what about the teaching of child sacrifice going on in today's 7th grade classes? (and actually starting much earlier-1st grade)
70 posted on 01/06/2002 5:28:31 PM PST by Optimist
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