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To: fortheDeclaration;OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M;the_doc;CCWoody; George W.Bush
There is big difference between Illumination by the Holy Spirit to make the Gospel understandable so the individual can make a decision to receive or reject Christ (2Cor.4:6, Jn.12:32) and Irresistible grace

What is the difference beside the words being used? We agree that without an intervention of God the scripture can not be understood. We both believe that it is from hearing the word that faith comes.So without the "illumination " the word can not be heard or understood. Why do some receive the illumination and others not? What is the difference? Those that are dead in sin can not receive the things of God.That light is life ,it is the grace of God saying "come out"

At the moment of your conversion did you hesitate and say "wait a minute here ,let me think about this"? Or was the presence of God enough to make you desire Him above all else?

228 posted on 01/15/2002 7:41:41 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
What is the difference beside the words being used? We agree that without an intervention of God the scripture can not be understood. We both believe that it is from hearing the word that faith comes.So without the "illumination " the word can not be heard or understood. Why do some receive the illumination and others not? What is the difference? Those that are dead in sin can not receive the things of God.That light is life ,it is the grace of God saying "come out"

The can receive the things of God if God (The same God that the Calvinist is always screaming is Omnipotent,) wants it to be so. The issue does make the choice for the individual, or does He make the choice understandable I find it amazing that Calvinists limit the Omnipotence of God by stating He cannot make the Gospel understandable to someone who is spiritually dead! The real issue is that the Calvinist system demands that man be passive while Love demands a active response. Being a woman, I am sure you understand that important difference. God (intiates-grace) man responds (faith-receive the free gift)-very simple.

At the moment of your conversion did you hesitate and say "wait a minute here ,let me think about this"? Or was the presence of God enough to make you desire Him above all else

Since each conversion is different one can not make an issue of it. Some do struggle-Wesley comes to mind.Augustine (if he was saved) seemed to had some problems. Luther also. Some see it very clearly and it is immediate. I was saved as a child so I do not remember the experience, but I always knew Jesus Christ was the eternal Son of God, the Saviour of the World. I believe children, not having alot of mental baggage find that reality easier to accept.

Finally, why some receive the illumnation and some do not? All receive some Illumination. (Psa 19:1-3, Rom 1:19). At that point of general Illumination an individual is either positive (desiring more) or negative (rejecting God-Rom.1:21). God will provide more Illumination to those who will believe. The Gospel goes out and will fall on hard ground and soft. The 'soft' ground will respond freely.The 'hard' ground react and reject. There are areas of the world where the negative volition is so great that those areas have been closed to the Gospel. One Missionary spent I believe 40 years in Mongola and had one convert! Depravity does not mean a dead will. It means a weakened, corrupted will but one that can still cry out save me

That they should seek the Lord,if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us(Acts 17:27)

Even so, come Lord Jesus

247 posted on 01/15/2002 10:48:58 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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