A statement posed by you and answered in the Pelagianism post: If you think Jesus was teaching that sinners sin because their nature makes them sin, you have no idea what sin is. Do you think sin is something that happens to you, and that God judges people for what happens to them? Find a good concordance and find out how many times the Bible says people will be judged according to their works. Do you just throw those verses out out?
Now, I do not throw out verses. Quote specific verses. But make no mistake, what you have said was directly addressed by the article. A verse for your consideration:
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Now, if this verse is true, and it is, then the natural man, who does not have the Spirit of God within him, does not even have the ability to do good. Oh, and BTW, the verses you quoted in your post do not help your position, but they do help Matchett-PI's and mine and docs and every other sincere Bible reader on this thread!
"I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in Me and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without Me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples.
Always about the glory of God! Are you now going to condemn me for quoting what Somebody Else wrote?
Now, if this verse is true, and it is, then the natural man, who does not have the Spirit of God within him, does not even have the ability to do good...
...Are you now going to condemn me for quoting what Somebody Else wrote?
First, I never condemn anyone and certainly not for quoting Scripture. I also do not accuse people of being insincere. I believe you are sincere. People can be sincerely mistaken.
Neither nature or "the natural man" is mentioned in chapter 7 of Romans. That is something you added. It is interesting that nature is so misunderstood, especially since Paul makes it so very clear. For example,
Rom. 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
Here Pual indicates that sin is against nature, not the result of it.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Here Paul shows that mans nature can lead him to obey God's law. How is this possible if it is "totally depraved."
1 Cor. 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
Now Paul has nature teaching what is shameful, and what is not. Interesting the Paul would pick something totally depraved and helplessly evil to illustrate decency.
As for Pual's words about his inability to do that which he would do, there is no reason to suppose a sinful nature from that. Sin is addicting and enslaving, and those who have chosen it, become it's helpless slaves.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
2 Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Is mankind deprave? Yes, by choice. We are all, before we are saved, servants of sin, by choice, and guilty of that choice. When Paul says, "his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness," it would be meaningless if man was required by his "sinful nature" to sin. There would be no question of "obeying" sin, because he would have no choice in the matter at all. But, in fact he does have a choice, and always chooses wrong, and is thus brought into bondage to sin. And it is this bondage that Paul was decrying.
Hank
I will not bring up the 'devout Centurian' in Acts 10 who was not even a believer (Acts 11), but are you saying that unbelievers are incapable of being kind, generous, forgiving, law-abiding? Even Calvinists concede that unregenerate man is not as evil as he can be. That conscience and christian influence play a role in restraining the old nature. The issue in depravitiy is that nothing good that man does can please God. God is only pleased by what His Son did. Hence, depravity means man is dependent on someone else saving him, he cannot save himself. Cain brought offerings to God but they were not the ones that God sought.
Even so, come Lord Jesus