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The Reformers and Church Fathers on Nature, Grace, and Choice
Vanity, vanity, everything is vanity | December 29, 2001 | Andrew Reeves (me)

Posted on 12/29/2001 1:02:06 PM PST by AndrewSshi

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
“The stars aren’t aligned-
Or the gods are malign”
Blame is better to give than receive.

All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In Heaven's unearthly estate.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

--Rush, “Freewill,” ©1980.

When Martin Luther defied a Pope and proclaimed salvation only through the ineffable grace of God, he had no idea that he was rending the body of the ancient church that had for so long known only unity. As his revolution spread, though, all Christendom watched as the Church began to fracture like one of the rose windows smashed by a maddened Swiss mob. Northern Germany, Scandinavia, and a large portion of the Swiss cantons turned away from the faith they had known for centuries, causing no small consternation in a civilization that valued timeless truths above novelty, and which viewed the past as the repository of truth and the present and future as decay. When the reformers were accused by men like Cardinal Sadoleto of pulling away from their faith for the sake of unprecedented novelties, both Luther and Calvin responded that it was their medieval forbears who had introduced devilish novelties into the Church, and that they were merely restoring Christianity to its ancient form (“Reply,” 56).

Such claims and counter claims were absolutely vital in the spirit of those times. For if Christ had indeed left His authority with a body of believers upon his ascension, then any faction claiming to possess the true meaning of His scriptures would logically have to be in agreement with that original body that carried on Christ’s truth after His return to His Father. It is outside of the purview of the discipline of history to ask questions about the existence and nature of God or the supernatural claims of any institution. We can, however, examine the claims of historical continuity by the various parties involved: Were Doctors Luther and Calvin reclaiming an ancient theology obscured by centuries of scholastic decadence, or were they, as their opponents claimed, introducing novelties never before seen under the sun? I intend, through an examination of patristic sources in comparison to Luther and Calvin, to demonstrate that the reformers reclaimed certain Augustinian principles, but in carrying them to their logical extremes, went to lengths that were utterly without precedent.

In examining the Reformation and its dogmas, we must first understand the key fulcrum upon which the reformation turned. This point, though, is often obscured when navigating through a list of secondary issues like use of images, liturgical style, church property, etc. We would do well to note that all of these issues pale besides that which drove the reformers to the lengths they went—“Therefore it is clear that, as the soul needs only the Word of God for its life and righteousness, so it is justified by faith alone and not any works; for if it could be justified by anything else, it would not need the Word, and consequently it would not need faith.” The reformation stands or falls on the basis of the assertion that man is justified before God only through His ineffable grace, by faith alone.

At the outset, this should not seem like too much of a problem. Even the most adamant pre-Vatican II Catholic will acknowledge the corrupt nature of man and inability to approach the righteousness of Christ without divine grace. Why then, did the reformers’ preaching of grace cause such a stir? If we delve below the surface, the problem with sola fide soon becomes apparent. If salvation comes by grace through faith alone, then no works of man can have anything do to with his salvation. If that is the case, then, as Luther tells us, this discounts any act of the will, for if one were to be able to will oneself to believe, faith would simply be a meritorious work (Luther, 135). Calvin reaches a similar conclusion in his Institutes (XXI, 1), and such thinking leaves us with the uncomfortable notion that, if one is to be saved by faith alone, then man, shorn of his free will, is reduced to the role of a puppet dancing on God’s strings. This of course opens up a host of other difficulties, and the perplexed believer is left asking if God in His love also responsible for evil. In the end, the Roman Catholic Church rejected reformed dogma in order to defend the doctrine of man’s freedom (Tracy, 101).

This rejection then left the reformers in the position of standing against the ancient Catholic Church and demanding that they, rather than the ancient church, possessed apostolic truth. Erasmus of Rotterdam had this to say about Luther’s claim to have re-discovered the truth:

Even though Christ’s spirit might permit His people to be in error in an unimportant question on which man’s salvation does not depend, no one would believe that this Spirit has deliberately overlooked error in His church for 1300 years, and that He did not deem one of all the pious and saintly Church Fathers worthy to be inspired, with what, they contend, is the very essence of all evangelical teaching (Erasmus, 19).
Erasmus lays a fairly serious charge at Luther’s feet. The answer, then to the question of whether or not the reformers held views in concord with the ancient church lies in ascertaining Erasmus’s assertion that the denial of free will is completely alien to the historical record of the Church’s teachings.

Since Erasmus felt it meet to bring the Church Fathers into the discussion, I shall begin my examination with patristic sources. I intend first to examine the works of Justin Martyr, a second century convert and one of the first Christian apologists. I intend to examine Justin’s work as a case study for several reasons, chief of which are that his first and second apologies were written both to answer objections to the Christian faith and outline its basic principles, and, if we are looking for a picture of early Christianity as handed down to the apostles, we could do no better than to examine the product of a Church removed from the death of the last apostle by less than a century.

To properly comprehend the early Church’s positions on the freedom of the will, we must first examine the philosophical background of the classical world from which Christianity emerged. We quickly find that, as a general rule, the classical world was hostile to the notion of humanity possessing the free ability to choose. Democritus with his mechanistic view of the cosmos and the Eleatics with their monism both held that all events and choices were under the sway of a deterministic necessity (“Free Will”). Aristotle was a bit more optimistic, allowing for contingency, but then, with his cosmos brought into being by a primum mobile, it is hard to escape the notion that all subsequent causes must be dependent of the first cause (ibid). Nor did the stoics allow for free choice, which was precluded by their pantheistic picture of the universe (ibid). It was against such background that Christianity addressed the issue of man’s freedom.

In Chapters XLIII and XLIV of his Second Apology, Justin examines the question as to whether or not men are free. His conclusion is an unambiguous rejection of the classical world’s determinism. Martyr makes several arguments, one based on a usage of the term “devour” in Isaiah, and another on the dubious notion that Plato learned what he knew from the Hebrew prophets (Martyr, XLIV). We shall pass over these, though, in favor of the much more powerful argument of responsibility. He tells his reader “unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions” (Martyr, XLIII). Justin hammers this point home further in stating that God made man, “not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice” (ibid). For Martyr, the sinner would not be worthy of punishment if his action were not of his own volition, but a result of the condition in which he was made (ibid). He then quotes Deuteronomy 30:15, 19: “Behold before thy face are good and evil: choose the good” (1.2.5).

Augustine in his answer affirmed that man does evil through the use of his free choice (Free Choice, 1.16.35), and that evil comes not from God, but rather from a negation of His goodness, that is, in a man turning from the good that which is God to follow his own desires (ibid, 2.20.54). In agreement with Justin Martyr, he asks rhetorically, “How could a man be punished justly, if he used his will for the very purpose for which it was given” (ibid, 2.1.3)? He goes on to state that to be justly punished, sin must be committed by a free act of the will (ibid).

In this context, when Augustine speaks of the decrees of God, he speaks of God’s predestination as coming through the foreknowledge of His omniscience. Indeed, he goes out of his way to state that foreknowledge is not the same as compulsion (Free Choice, 3.4.10), and states that, simply because God has foreseen an evil does not mean that He is responsible (ibid, 3.4.11). He draws the notion of foreknowledge to its logical conclusion, stating that because God foreknows everything, then events must happen as He has foreseen (ibid, 3.3.8). This appears to satisfactorily wrap up the issue of God’s decrees.

All of the above would seem to create the impression that God’s only action in working out His will is in foreseeing that which will occur and thus working out His will through man’s will. But we must carefully bear in mind that Augustine is speaking of the origins of evil. We have not yet examined what Augustine taught from scripture concerning, not man’s reprobation, but his salvation. When we look to this issue, the picture of Augustine becomes much murkier.

Augustine notes that the first man fell through his own completely free choice. Adam, in Augustine’s thinking, was completely free to choose either good or evil, and opted for evil (Free Choice, 3.24.73). From this point, humanity was enslaved to original sin. The original sin came through free will, but subsequently, though still free, the will was subject to corruption, and thus, unable to rise to salvation. This can be summed up in the statement, “But, though man fell through his own will, he cannot rise through his own will” (ibid, 2.20.54).

At this point in his career, Augustine might have been willing to acknowledge that man can freely look for the grace of God in order to assist him in doing good, stating that man, though subject to concupiscence, nonetheless has the knowledge of God, by whose grace he might rise to a higher state (ibid, 3.19.53). If we were to cease our examination of Augustine here, we would find a ready partisan of Rome, affirming man’s free choice, predestination through foreknowledge, and the ability of man to choose God. Alas, the picture is not that simple.

For at the turn of the fifth century, the notorious heretic Pelagius preached that man in and of himself had the ability to be perfect, and that the fall of Adam, rather than plunging the whole of the human race into sin, served merely as a bad example (Nature and Grace, 9.10). To the dismay of the good Doctor, Pelagius and his followers sought to bolster support for their beliefs with Augustine’s very own writings on free will (Retractions, 1.9.3). Augustine’s response to this heretic’s teachings generated his later writings on the will, predestination, and divine grace.

It must be noted that Augustine’s later writings on original sin and predestination seems to show a markedly different posture from his earlier work on free will. While it has been argued that this hardened stance was due either to his reaction to the fall of Rome or the Pelagian heresy, it is more likely that his own views were gradually evolving under the influence of St. Paul, independent of external circumstances. I base my judgment on Augustine’s quotation of his Retractions in On the Predestination of the Saints:

I indeed labored in defense of the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God conquered, and only thus was I able to arrive at the point where I understood that the Apostle spoke with the clearest truth, “For who singles you out? Or what do you have that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it” (1 Corinthians 4:7, qtd. in Predestination, 4.8)?
The above taken into account, the later Augustine still believes that those who choose faith in Christ do so of their own free will, but with the important caveat that God has prepared the will of the elect to choose Him (Predestination, 6.11). Under these teachings of Augustine, free will alone is insufficient to believe in Christ, and indeed, if free will is enough for the believer to be saved, then “Christ has died in vain” (Nature and Grace, 40.47). The will of man is both corrupt and inadequate to seek salvation. The elect are not called because they believe, but so that they may believe (Predestination, 17.34). We see Augustine at his most Protestant when he further recounts his own changing views in stating “I said most truly: ‘For just as in those “whom God has chosen,” not works initiate merit, but faith…’ [Emphasis added.] But that merit of faith is also a gift of God…” (Predestination, 3.7) Here, then, the Catholic, to his dismay, sees what seems to be protestant doctrine issuing from the pen of the arch-Catholic.

We will be going too far, though, if we make Augustine a five point Calvinist. We must note that, for starters, when he issued a retraction concerning his first writings on the nature of evil, he stated that free will was inadequate for man to rise to God. He never, though, changed his statement that evil comes only from the free exercise of the will, and never denies that in choosing to do evil, Adam was under no compulsion. When he mentions predestination, he is quite clear that only by God’s predestination can man come to an efficacious and saving faith, but what is striking is that predestination is only mentioned regarding salvation. Those that are condemned do so merely because they follow their own corrupt will, and God justly punishes their evil deeds. Augustine takes his stand for grace and salvation through election, while at the same time avoiding the horror of double predestination.

For the next several centuries, the Church would follow this Augustinian path. The Church rejected the teachings of Pelagius, and a hundred years later at the Council of Orange, issued a series of canons affirming the Augustinian position on grace and predestination. Canon 4 states that if anyone contends that God’s cleansing of man from sin is contingent upon the will then he is in error; Canon 5 states that the beginning of faith itself comes from the grace of God rather than the will of man; Canon 6 states that grace does not depend on the cooperation of man (“Canons of Orange”). As the Church moved on through the centuries, she attempted to carry on in the steps of the African Doctor in straddling the fence between grace and free will. By the beginning of the High Middle Ages, though, the Church was pulling back towards a system that acknowledged the primacy of the human will. By the turn of the twelfth century, St. Anselm of Canterbury wrote in his De Concordia that free choice co-exists with divine grace and cooperates with it (Anselm, 453). With such pronouncements, The Church had arrived at a position specifically condemned by St. Augustine (cf. Letter 225). We shall now examine how well Luther and Calvin succeeded in their attempts to return to his teachings.

Luther would be in perfect concord with Augustine in his affirmation of salvation by grace through faith. In The Bondage of the Will, though, he arrives at Augustine, but then passes him completely, arriving in territory where none have trodden before. Augustine stated that man’s fall came through his choice, and the resulting corruption of human nature resulted in a will that commits sin of its own volition. Luther does the good doctor one better, though, and asserts that the wicked man sins “under the impulse of divine power” (Luther, 130). Luther even challenges Augustine in his definition of free will, stating that, if in a fallen state the will is unable to seek God, then it is not in fact free (ibid, 113), and that Augustine and others who have called such a will free are degrading the very word (ibid, 120). Luther goes to the extreme end of the spectrum, and then beyond the pale, but recognizes and embraces this: “Therefore, we must go to extremes, deny free will altogether, and ascribe everything to God” (ibid, 133)!

Indeed, his statement that a will unable to do good is in fact under compulsion makes fine logical sense, but the end result is a man with no freedom, and one whose evil must be the responsibility of divine omnipotence. Luther here returns to the Augustinian notion that in His omnipotence God allows but does not cause the workings of evil in order to further His divine plan (ibid, 130). It almost seems here that Luther is pulling back from the brink of a precipice to which he has been running headlong, staring into an abyss to which he dare not attempt to apply his own feeble reason. And indeed, though throughout this debate on free will with Erasmus Luther employs the techniques of reason and dialectic, in the end he felt that any attempt to use reason to fathom the mind of God was a fairly silly exercise (ibid, 129). As the reformation continued, though, another figure would arrive who would see no problem in attempting to apply human reason to the workings of the Eternal God, taking every statement on grace, sin, and God’s decrees to their horrifying ends, leaping joyfully into the abyss from which Luther held back. That man was Jean Calvin.

Even the extreme bombast of Luther’s Bondage of the Will does not take the horrific final step in the picture it paints of God’s omnipotence. Like Augustine, Luther admits that since the fall, man has been a slave to sin, but Calvin finally dares to examine from whence came the fall. His conclusion, unlike Augustine’s, is that God actively caused the fall of Adam and the whole human race into sin and damnation as part of His “wonderful plan” (Institutes, XXIII, 7). The ruthless Frenchman then goes on to state that God is nonetheless just in punishing the reprobate (ibid, XXIII, 4). Though this horribly contradicts both Augustine and Justin Martyr’s writings of responsibility, Calvin barely hesitates when he states that he is leaving behind the bulk of the Church’s traditions in favor of his alleged ruthless adherence to scripture (ibid, XXII, 1). Calvin has no problem in that asserting that, since salvation is not by works, then neither is damnation (ibid, XXII, 11), and that the reason for the eternal torment of the vast majority of the human race lies, not in their guilt, but in the arbitrary choice of God.

This horror, then, is the end result of the reformation: God has arbitrarily predestined some to eternal life, and has likewise predestined others to eternal damnation. Calvin then states that certain people might object to this, stating that it makes God a cruel tyrant, to which he responds that since God is both omnipotent and the creator of everything, then all that He decrees, ipso facto, is righteous, good, and just (Institutes, XXIII, 2). He then has the chutzpah to go on and tell the reader that his dogma is not one of absolute might, since God is “free from fault,” and the quintessence of Law and Right (ibid).

Jean Calvin then, has started from Augustine, who among the Church Fathers was most friendly to predestination, and taken the teachings of predestination to their logical extreme, crafting a dogma that would have caused St. Augustine to blanch in horror. Did St. Augustine believe in divine election and predestination of believers? Most assuredly. It was up to Jean Calvin, though, to add double predestination and eliminate Augustine’s free will theodicy in favor of a God who has decreed evil and suffering for his own amusement.

I submit, though, that such questions concerning free will and predestination would inevitably have come to the fore and been the cause of controversy even without Luther and Calvin. The reason for this is that Augustine loomed large over the western Church down through the centuries, and at times there seem to be two Augustines. Why is this the case? The reason that there seem to be two St. Augustines lies in the Bible itself, since there seem to be two St. Pauls*. We have the Paul who tells the believer in Romans Chapter 9 that God prepares some men for eternal life and some for damnation, answering the obvious objection to this with a “Who are you, O man, to talk back to God” (Romans 9:20)? On the other hand, we are also told that there is a loving God who “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). Such contradictions in the Christian faith, then, were present at its inception.

Indeed, such difficulties are inevitable in any faith that attempts to posit a God who is all-powerful, all knowing, and all good. Paul, who likely never intended to be considered a basis for systematic theology, is all over the map when it comes to how to resolve such questions. As such, there is no pat resolution to these seeming contradictions. Perhaps the error of the church was to seek one; Luther is at his best not when he is glorying in the slavery of man, but when he is proclaiming the mercy of Christ.

Works Cited

Anselm of Canterbury, Saint. The Major Works. Eds. Brian Davies and G. R. Evans. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998.

Augustine of Hippo, Saint. Four Anti-Pelagian Writings: On Nature and Grace, On the Proceedings of Pelagius, On the Predestination of the Saints, On the Gift of Perseverance. Trans. John A. Mourant and William J. Collinge. Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1992.

---. The Problem of Free Choice. Trans. Dom Mark Pontifex. New York: Newman Press, 1955.

The Problem of Free Choice. Appendix. Excerpt from Retractions.

Calvin, Jean. Excerpts from Institutes of the Christian Religion. The Protestant Reformation. Ed. Hans J. Hillerbrand. New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1968. 178-221.

---. “Reply to Sadoleto.” A Reformation Debate. Ed. John C. Olin. New York, Fordham University Press, 2000. 43-88.

"The Canons of the Council of Orange.” 529 A.D. Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics.

“Free Will.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Michael Maher. 1909. Transcribed 1999.

Martyr, Justin, Saint. “The Second Apology.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Eds. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1899. 188-194.

Erasmus of Rotterdam. Excerpts from The Free Will. Winter 3-94.

Luther, Martin. Excerpts from The Bondage of the Will. Winter 98-138.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: calvin
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To: White Mountain, the_doc, CCWoody, RnMomof7, Jerry_M, George W. Bush, AndrewSshi
You are excessively kind (actually unkind), OPie, to accuse me of bearing false witness, lo, these many times.

I am excessively accurate.

Your accusations are funny. If your accusation is that I say John Calvin misinterpreted the Bible, and then used Romans 9:20 to try to silence people who point that out, that is true, not false.

No. My accusation is that you deliberately mis-state John Calvin. Which you do.
And that, after being carefully corrected, and charitably offered the opportunity to correct your falsehoods.

It is an indication of the extremes to which John Calvin went, arguably further than anyone before him was willing to go, that he responds to criticism with personal accusations, as you do.

I only require that you stop promulgating falsehoods, and claiming that they are "Calvinism".
Do that, and I'll not "accuse" you of falsehood, because you will have ceased bearing false witness.

I'd be perfectly happy if you would. But the ball is in your court, to do so.

You buttress my argument with your accusing ways. You, like Calvin, accuse people of questioning #1, trying to get them to doubt #3, when it is #2 they question. Calvin is not God.

No, and Calvin is not the Easter Bunny, either. But if you insist on attributing falsehoods to him, you can make of him whatever you like.

Beating up on a straw man of your own construction avails you nothing.

181 posted on 01/11/2002 8:37:46 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: White Mountain, the_doc, CCWoody, RnMomof7, Jerry_M, George W. Bush, AndrewSshi
Bible Truth is presented: God is always fair and just.
John Calvin's interpretations are then presented as though they were on a par with Bible truth: God has predestined some to eternal life without regard to any merit on their part, and has likewise predestined others to eternal damnation, specifically with regard to moral demerit on their part -- God withholds from the latter the grace to repent -- the rest of TULIP -- etc.
The regenerate reader's common sense says this is horribly unfair and unjust.

"Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Romans 9:20), in which Holy Scripture is used to imply that the reader is questioning #1 (the justice of God) and to demand therefore that the reader must instead question #3 (his/her common sense), when in fact it is #2 (the erroneous logic and conclusions of Mr. Calvin) that must be called into question.

The sanctified mind does not answer back against the absolute sovereignty of God -- as Paul affirms.

This is the teaching of Scripture, which the regenerate, sanctified Mind accepts.
182 posted on 01/11/2002 8:45:11 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
White Mountain demonstrates, once again, the Total Depravity of the unregenerate. 'Nuff said.
183 posted on 01/11/2002 8:45:18 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Your #182:

Those who reject the truth of God's Sovereignty ... The sanctified mind does not answer back against the absolute sovereignty of God ...
There you go again, pretending that #1 (God Himself) is being questioned, not #2 (Calvin's teachings).
184 posted on 01/11/2002 8:57:45 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: Jerry_M
Your #183 to OP:

White Mountain demonstrates, once again, the Total Depravity of the unregenerate. 'Nuff said.
Now there we have false witness, for I am regenerate! Perhaps your depravity is showing. 8=)
185 posted on 01/11/2002 9:03:57 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
There you go again, pretending that #1 (God Himself) is being questioned, not #2 (Calvin's teachings).
186 posted on 01/11/2002 9:10:01 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: White Mountain, Jerry_M
Now there we have false witness, for I am regenerate! Perhaps your depravity is showing. 8=)

By Mormon teachings, sure you are.
By Christian teachings, of course you aren't.

And this is America. You have an unimpeachable constitutional right to believe that you are regenerate.
To require Christians to believe it, though, is to deny Christian religious liberty.

187 posted on 01/11/2002 9:14:01 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Your #186: The verses you quoted are of course correct, the interpretation above each one is not.

Your #187: By Christian teachings, of course I am!

(Time for someone to chime in saying this is getting petty. Any takers?)

188 posted on 01/11/2002 9:34:55 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain, Jerry_M
Your #187: By Christian teachings, of course I am!

Mormons are no more Christians than Hindus are Christians.
Each is an major religion devoutly adhered to by millions of people, who are perfectly free to practice their faith under the benevolent aegis of American religious liberty.

But pretending that either Hindus, or Mormons, are somehow Christian... is just silly.

No one is saying that a Hindu, or a Mormon, cannot claim that they are a Christian!! We do have Freedom of Speech!!

It's just that if they do so, they are being silly, that's all. Remand the case to Monty Python for adjudication.

189 posted on 01/11/2002 9:45:34 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Yes, Latter-Day Saints are Christians. It doesn't matter how many times you deny it, and bear false witness against all of us.

In conclusion (returning to the topic), I find it incredible that you have confused the writings of Calvin with the Truth of God so thoroughly that you consider it a 9th-Commandment sin to criticize Calvin's ideas (and try to absolve yourself of your own false witness). Yet this is the essence of our little conversation tonight.

Actually, I am criticizing not so much his ideas -- since I let you edit #2 to your liking -- I am criticizing his debating/objection-handling tactic (the same one you use) of confusing his ideas with the Truth of God.

This confusion is a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot mistake that no competent debater should make. But I suppose this is what has kept Calvinism going for 500 years.

Good night.

190 posted on 01/12/2002 12:26:29 AM PST by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Yes, Latter-Day Saints are Christians. It doesn't matter how many times you deny it, and bear false witness against all of us."

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie - II Thessalonians 2:11

(I know that WM will claim that we are deluded in believing him not to be a Christian, we state that he is deluded in believing that he is a Christian.)

191 posted on 01/12/2002 6:03:45 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: White Mountain;OrthodoxPresbyterian;Jerry_M
Yes, Latter-Day Saints are Christians. It doesn't matter how many times you deny it, and bear false witness against all of us.

WM if I chose to sleep in the garage tonight that will not make me a car....My friend, Mormons are most certainly NOT Christians. You deny the trinity.You believe that Jesus is a god..a status that we may all obtain...you are not even in the ballpark on Christian doctrine..and you know that inspite of your protestations to the contrary. You have a kind of salvation by works (including baptism of the dead) ...no WM the Latter Day Saints are not Christian.

192 posted on 01/12/2002 10:43:23 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
?? Is ATONEMENT Old Testament, or,....Is ATONEMENT New Testament??
??Is there a difference?? If so, WHY.
??Who/what 'makes' it such??
?? Is there a 'choice'??
?? MUST one make 'a choice'??
193 posted on 01/12/2002 10:51:18 AM PST by maestro
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To: White Mountain
As far as I can remember Joseph Smith claimed to have been divinely instucted to set up the mormon church and not to join any of the traditional Christian denominations as they were "apostate".
He was then supposedly shown the "revelation" of the book of mormon which is supposedly free from error, whereas mormons believe the Bible is true "only in as much as it has been correctly translated".

I have a couple of honest questions which I hope you can answer me on. Do mormons still consider mainstream Christian denominations apostate, if so why should it offend you if we do not consider you to be of the same faith as us? Secondly do you consider the Bible to be the single authoritave, innerant and inspired Word of God? If so why insist on using the book of mormon? If there were no significant changes between the Church of Latter Day Saints and Mainstream Christian Denominations then why is it that Mormons do not embrace the Historic Christian confessionssuch as the Baptist confessions for example and why do mormons only join Christian denominations after they have rejected what is taught in your church?

194 posted on 01/12/2002 1:00:29 PM PST by winslow
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To: White Mountain, Jerry_M, the_doc, RnMomof7
Yes, Latter-Day Saints are Christians. It doesn't matter how many times you deny it, and bear false witness against all of us.

Nope.

To annex to the completed New Testament any additional books and claim them to be "inspired Scripture", makes one a Non-Christian. Muslims are Non-Christians, and Mormons are Non-Christians.

In conclusion (returning to the topic), I find it incredible that you have confused the writings of Calvin with the Truth of God so thoroughly that you consider it a 9th-Commandment sin to criticize Calvin's ideas (and try to absolve yourself of your own false witness). Yet this is the essence of our little conversation tonight. Actually, I am criticizing not so much his ideas -- since I let you edit #2 to your liking -- I am criticizing his debating/objection-handling tactic (the same one you use) of confusing his ideas with the Truth of God. This confusion is a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot mistake that no competent debater should make. But I suppose this is what has kept Calvinism going for 500 years. Good night.

I consider it a 9th-Commandment sin for you to deliberately mis-state Calvin's beliefs.

Pretending that I confuse Calvin with Inerrant Scripture doesn't dig you out of your ditch of Falsehood, WM. Calvin could've believed that the Moon was made of green cheese, and as long as you try to convince your listeners that Calvin believed the Moon was made of yoghurt, you are lying about him.

For Ninth-Commandment issues, it doesn't matter whether or not you believe Calvin's ideas were correct; it matters that you not LIE and mis-respresent those ideas.

That should be simple enough for you to understand.

So quit whimpering that "Calvinists confuse Calvin with the Truth of God", and try debating Calvin's positions as correctly stated. If you stop telling lies about Calvinism in the first place, we are perfectly content to debate the old guy's ideas as stated, in which points correct, in which points incorrect.

195 posted on 01/12/2002 4:30:46 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: White Mountain; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; winslow; the_doc
Yes, Latter-Day Saints are Christians. It doesn't matter how many times you deny it, and bear false witness against all of us.

Christians are not Mormons and Mormons are not Christians by the very definition of the word Christian. To claim to be so just makes those of us who are Christian laugh at such a ridiculous claim. And until you repent of all the unique things that Mormonism teaches then we will not consider you to be one of us. In fact, we will regard you as a false teacher and your prophets and false prophets.

196 posted on 01/12/2002 5:44:26 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody, the_doc, Jerry_M
Christians do not believe in Kolob like Mormons do.

We do, however, believe in Shish-Kebob.

Yum.

197 posted on 01/12/2002 5:54:52 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
LOL..put that beer down right now !

MOM

198 posted on 01/12/2002 6:12:53 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody, the_doc, Jerry_M, RnMomof7
By the way, Woody... I just want to thank you again for being our resident "cult answer-man" in our little Reformed/Calvinist apologetics crew. It's work enough for me to maintain our theological distinctives in trinitarian circles (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Arminians, etc.); I simply don't have the time to keep myself abreast of the errors of the non-trinitarians and such. Good to be able to rely on you to take up my slack in that regard.
199 posted on 01/12/2002 7:51:36 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
I adore kohlrabi. (Is that how you spell it?)

[Lurkers see the referenced post!]

200 posted on 01/12/2002 8:36:08 PM PST by the_doc
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