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Darwinism Under Attack ( Intelligent Design Theory)
Chronicle of Higher Education ^ | 21December 2001 | BETH MCMURTRIE

Posted on 12/18/2001 7:05:45 AM PST by shrinkermd

When John L. Omdahl teaches a course on biochemistry and molecular biology at the University of New Mexico, he sets aside a portion of his last lecture to explain why he disagrees with a central tenet of evolutionary science: that Darwin's theories of random mutation and natural selection offer a reliable framework for understanding how life developed. In fact, throughout his course, the professor tries to avoid the word "evolution," which he calls a "loaded term."

To Mr. Omdahl, who has taught at the university since 1972, a more palatable explanation for the diversity of life is that an intelligent force has guided the evolutionary proc-ess. The universe is too complex, the conditions for life too exacting, to conclude that it could have developed in such a sophisticated way without help from some "external agent."

"In my department, 90 percent of the people here, or more, would be opposed to the position I have," he says. "They're very uncomfortable with me having these discussions. But I'm very comfortable."

For the vast majority of scientists, evolution through natural means is as much a fact as the earth's revolution around the sun. Yet a small but vocal number of biologists, chemists, philosophers, and mathematicians are determined to change that view. They believe that an intelligent agent -- most rigorously avoid the word "God" -- has guided the earth's history, and that scientific research can prove its existence. While most scientists are quick to dismiss the idea as religion cloaked in academic jargon, advocates of the concept, known as intelligent design, are making inroads into academe, thanks to their unconventional approach, sophisticated arguments, and scholarly credentials.

Intelligent-design theory has been greeted most warmly at evangelical Christian colleges, where it is sometimes taught as a viable alternative to Darwinian evolution. Other institutions have been far less sympathetic. Although intelligent design has advocates in some science departments, no secular or mainstream college teaches it as a legitimate theory. Scientists who do support intelligent design have been relegated to teaching it as a nonscience course, as at the University of California at Berkeley and the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities.

Advocates have also organized conferences at such universities as Baylor and Yale, and have assembled a group of more than 100 scientists to criticize Darwinian theory in full-page advertisements in national publications. The New York Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science have sponsored debates on intelligent design, and three academic presses are publishing books on the subject.

While some of that scrutiny is quite critical of intelligent-design theory, advocates see the mere mention of their ideas in academic settings as a victory. "The point is, you wouldn't have MIT Press bringing out a 780-page volume on flat-earth theory," says Paul A. Nelson, a philosopher of science at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based think tank that supports intelligent design. One of his articles is being reprinted in a book on intelligent design forthcoming from the press.

The growing visibility of intelligent-design theory troubles some academics. They say that through sloppy science and deceptive logic, its advocates are winning converts among students, professors in nonscientific fields, and the public. "I don't think intelligent design is a science," says Bruce Alberts, president of the National Academy of Sciences. "It's a way of restating creationism in a different formulation."

He and other scientists lay the blame for intelligent design's public-relations successes squarely on their discipline. They say that professors must do a better job of explaining not just the facts of science, but the process that undergirds it. A recent Gallup Poll found that 45 percent of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years, and 39 percent believe that Darwin's theory of evolution is not supported by the evidence. "If so many students and science teachers are ready to buy into it," says Massimo Pigliucci, an associate professor of botany at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville, "then obviously we failed somewhere dramatically in science education."

How It Began

The book credited with laying out the philosophical underpinnings of the modern intelligent-design movement was published in 1991 by Phillip E. Johnson, a law professor at Berkeley who claimed that Darwinian evolution is based on scant evidence and faulty assumptions. In 1996, a biochemist at Lehigh University, Michael J. Behe, offered scientific argument in favor of intelligent design. Mr. Behe introduced the idea that some living things are irreducibly complex, meaning that they could not have evolved and must have been designed.

Two years later, a mathematician who now works at Baylor University, William A. Dembski, claimed to have developed a mathematical "explanatory filter" that could determine whether certain events, including biological phenomena, develop randomly or are the products of design.

The intelligent-design movement attacks evolutionary theory in two basic ways. Philosophically, it argues that because science refuses to consider anything but natural explanations for things, it is biased against evidence of supernatural intervention. Scientifically, it criticizes the evidence for evolution through natural processes.

The movement has expanded by pitching a big tent. It includes people like Mr. Behe, who believes that all living things evolved from a common ancestor, as well as Mr. Nelson, a creationist who believes the earth is several thousand years old. What all agree on, though, is that an intelligent force, which many of them personally believe is God, has directed the development of life.

The movement coalesced in 1996, when the Discovery Institute established the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. The center, which is largely financed by Christian foundations, spends about $1-million a year to support research, advocacy, and publications on intelligent design, and many of its most prominent advocates in academe are fellows there. Stephen C. Meyer, an associate professor of philosophy at Whitworth College who heads the center, says its primary goal is to establish academic credibility for intelligent design by publishing research on it. "I think there are going to be more and more younger scientists and philosophers of science who are going to be attracted by the idea," he says. "And they are going to want to talk about it."

So far, intelligent design has taken its greatest strides at religious institutions. Several evangelical Christian colleges have introduced intelligent-design theory into their science courses.

At Illinois's Wheaton College, a course for nonscience majors called "Origins" includes a discussion of intelligent design. Derrick A. Chignell, a chemistry professor, says that he and other science professors there tend to be more skeptical of the theory than are its advocates, but believe it raises important scientific and religious questions. "I've read the books, and I've been to the conferences, and I think it's intriguing," he says. "What I want to see is some science being done based on that paradigm that produces results that could not be produced by the Darwinian paradigm."

At Oklahoma Baptist University, Michael N. Keas, an associate professor of natural science, teaches intelligent-design theory in his science courses. In a freshman colloquium for biology majors, he uses Icons of Evolution: Why Much of What We Teach About Evolution Is Wrong to critique the conventional science textbooks students will use later, he says. "It allows them to critically evaluate the evidence pro and con for those books." Icons was written by Jonathan Wells, a molecular biologist and senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, and has been discredited by a number of scientists. Mr. Keas says that the science faculty at Oklahoma Baptist holds a "diversity of opinion" on intelligent design, but that the consensus is that "it's a viable part of the conversation."

'Why Are We Here?'

According to both friends and foes of the theory, it has made no headway into the science curriculums at secular universities. The closest it has come is at Berkeley and Minnesota. Jed Macosko, a postdoctoral researcher at Berkeley, created a course through a program that allows students to organize and run classes. Called "Evidence for Design in Nature?," the course, which has been taught several times, most recently last year, offered readings by a number of intelligent-design proponents and their critics. "We asked the real question -- why are we here, how did we get here?," he says. "We were answering it by looking at science."

With an undergraduate degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a doctorate from Berkeley, both in chemistry, Mr. Macosko has sterling credentials, and his course is frequently mentioned by people in the intelligent-design movement. The class was given an identifier, ChemE 198, that suggested it was a chemistry course.

But the person who authorized it, Jeffrey A. Reimer, a professor of chemical engineering, says that students were not allowed to take it for science credit. The syllabus covered such topics as the big bang, Mr. Dembski's "explanatory filter," and the origins of life. Mr. Macosko made clear to students that he believes firmly in intelligent design, but Mr. Reimer says he made sure that Mr. Macosko did not push his views on them. "I did not allow Jed to run it as a lecture format," Mr. Reimer says.

"I thought it was appropriate for a scientist to host a discussion about these worldviews and to get students to reflect on their own worldviews," he adds, saying that while he is "curious" about intelligent design, he thinks it has "little technical content" and does not belong in a science course.

Mr. Macosko's father, Christopher, a professor of chemical engineering and materials science at Minnesota's Twin Cities campus, taught the Berkeley course last year with his son and is offering a similar one at Minnesota this fall. "Origins: Chance or Design," a freshman seminar, covers scientific theories on the origins of life, as well as readings in philosophy and theology. Like many intelligent-design advocates, Mr. Macosko argues that the belief that life's complexity can be explained through chance and natural selection is in itself a form of faith. "It's really the religion of naturalism," he says.

A number of other scientists who teach at secular or mainstream universities are also sympathetic to design theory. While agreeing that not much research has been done to prove the existence of an intelligent designer, they believe that Darwinian evolution is flawed and say science departments should "teach the controversy." Last month, the Discovery Institute published some of their names in full-page advertisements in The New York Review of Books, The New Republic, and other high-profile publications. In the ad, which was created in reaction to a PBS series, Evolution, more than 100 science professors or people with doctorates in science declare that they are "skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life."

New Mexico's Mr. Omdahl was among them. He declines to label himself a proponent of intelligent design but says it has "some very credible arguments." He has always been wary of Darwinian explanations for how biological systems can advance from the simple to the complex. His notion of intelligent design also suits his religious faith, which he discusses as well in that last lecture to students.

"When you look to the idea that you and I are basically random events and random happenings, that left me feeling void and empty as a human being," he says. "That says there's no reason for laws, or for moral behavior."

Scott Minnich, a professor of microbiology and biochemistry at the University of Idaho, is another supporter of intelligent-design theory. Like others, he says he has no problem with microevolution, the small changes within species that develop over time. His dispute is with macroevolution -- larger transformations from, for example, reptiles to birds -- which he says is "full of speculation and assumptions."

Mr. Minnich brings up such ideas in his classes. He recommends, for example, that students in his introductory-microbiology course read Mr. Behe's book on "irreducible complexity." But he says he frames the discussion carefully. "If I make any statement that is on intelligent design counter to evolutionary theory, I make sure to tell students that this is my opinion, that this is controversial, that this is outside the consensus thinking, and they should know that."

This is good science, he says. "Is it wrong to ask students to stop and think, given time and what we know of biochemistry and molecular genetics, whether blind chance and necessity can build machines that dwarf our creative ability? Is that a legitimate question? I think it is."

Intelligent-design theory has also been taken up in philosophy, religion, and other liberal-arts courses. Some professors present it with skepticism; others find it intriguing.

Jeffrey Koperski, an assistant professor of philosophy at Saginaw Valley State University, in Michigan, teaches intelligent-design theory as part of a philosophy-of-science course that examines revolutions in scientific thought. In a section titled "the evolution debate," Mr. Koperski pre-sents the ideas of Mr. Dembski and Mr. Behe. He says they "raise serious challenges that should be addressed and looked at by all sides." That mainstream scientists reject design theory, he says, doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. Revolutionary theories, he notes, always begin as fringe movements.

A 'Non-Starter'

Scientists worry that because intelligent-design advocates like to make their case in the popular press, on the campus lecture circuit, or through nonscientific disciplines, their ideas may gain credibility among academics who do not have a strong understanding of evolutionary theory.

"It's a non-starter in the scientific community," says Eugenie C. Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which tracks the creationist movement. "But people in history, or social studies, or philosophy of science, who don't know that the science is bad, could very well be propagating this in the academic community. So there may be a lot of university graduates coming out of school thinking evolution is, quote, a theory in crisis."

A growing number of scientists have begun to respond to those challenges. "Kansas was definitely a wake-up call for many professors," says Brian J. Alters of McGill University, referring to a 1999 decision, since overturned, by that state's Board of Education to drop the teaching of evolution from public schools' science curriculums. As director of the Evolution Education Research Centre at McGill, Mr. Alters recently co-wrote a book on defending evolution in the classroom, to respond to an increase in requests for help from science teachers and professors.

Some scientists who have tackled anti-evolution arguments in the classroom say their discipline must do more on that front. "The other professors typically ignore it, and I think that's irresponsible, given the strategy of the creationists to infiltrate the school boards of the communities around the country, and pervert the undergraduate system that American kids are entitled to," says David S. Woodruff, chairman of the department of ecology, behavior, and evolution at the University of California at San Diego.

Last year, members of a student-run intelligent-design club handed out to Mr. Woodruff's students a list of 10 questions that disputed the evidence for evolution. One of the club's founders is now organizing intelligent-design clubs on other campuses.

Robert T. Pennock, an associate professor of philosophy at Michigan State University who has written about the movement, believes that an effective rebuttal to intelligent-design theory must include a discussion on the philosophy of science. While many scientists are loath to broach topics such as religion, materialism, and naturalism, he notes that design advocates often appeal to the public by arguing that Darwinism precludes the existence of God.

"Their central criticism is that science is dogmatically naturalistic, that it denies God's intervention by fiat, and that scientists are the gatekeepers and they won't let this in because they're all atheists," Mr. Pennock says. "One of the important things to explain is that science is not metaphysically naturalistic or atheistic. There's a difference between that position and the methodological rules it uses to conduct its work."

Many intelligent-design proponents believe there is a conspiracy to keep their ideas out of scientific circles. "I've been in public life a long time," says Bruce Chapman, president of the Discovery Institute. "This is one of the most blatant forms of viewpoint discrimination that I have seen."

Critics counter that the theory's advocates are the ones who are conspiring to curtail the debate. Rather than submit papers to respected scientific journals, critics say, they publish books. Rather than present papers at mainstream scientific conferences, they hold their own.

Lehigh's Mr. Behe is one researcher who says he has, in fact, submitted articles to scientific journals, and he adds that their rejection is a sign of the mainstream's close-mindedness.

Kenneth R. Miller, a professor of biology at Brown University and a leading critic of the intelligent-design movement, says such a view turns the scientific process on its head. If a researcher's theories are rejected, he says, that means that they have failed as good science, not that they're being suppressed.

Mr. Miller also wonders why Mr. Behe, a member of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, has never presented his ideas at its annual conference, which is his right. "If I thought I had an idea that would completely revolutionize cell biology in the same way that Professor Behe thinks he has an idea that would revolutionize biochemistry," he says, "I would be talking about that idea at every single meeting of my peers I could possibly get to."

Mr. Behe responds that he prefers other venues. "I just don't think that large scientific meetings are effective forums for presenting these ideas," he says.

Baylor's Mr. Dembski also has little interest in publicizing his research through traditional means. "I've just gotten kind of blasé about submitting things to journals where you often wait two years to get things into print," he says. "And I find I can actually get the turnaround faster by writing a book and getting the ideas expressed there. My books sell well. I get a royalty. And the material gets read more."

Last year, Mr. Dembski was at the center of what many intelligent-design advocates say was a clear case of discrimination. Baylor hired him to create a research center dedicated, in large part, to intelligent-design research. A faculty uproar ensued, leading the university to appoint an external committee to review the center's mission and structure. Eventually, the center was dismantled, although Mr. Dembski continues to work on intelligent design at Baylor.

Faculty members there said they were upset because the center had been created through administrative fiat rather than academic review. By doing so, they said, the administration had given intelligent-design theory a level of credibility it had not yet earned. Mr. Dembski says today that he has the university's support, including a five-year contract, a position as associate research professor in the conceptual foundations of science, and no teaching responsibilities. But he maintains that the center was destroyed by intense political pressure from outside the university.

Undeterred, Mr. Dembski has simply carved out another route. This month, the International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design was born. In a news release, the group is described as a "cross-disciplinary professional society that investigates complex systems apart from external programmatic constraints like materialism, naturalism, or reductionism." As with established academic organizations, this one offers conferences, postdoctoral fellowships, research grants, and a journal, Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design.

Mr. Dembski, Mr. Behe, Jed Macosko, Mr. Nelson, and Mr. Minnich are fellows of the new society.

Richard Monastersky contributed to this article.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: jlogajan
Yes. Because it is the cataloging of vast fossil evidence. The layering is always consistent with increased complexity over time. This is well beyond "guessing." The number of fossils are in the billions -- I have several right here on my desk. They aren't made up like biblical scripture was made up by goat herders 2000 years ago.

Nothing like kicking off a crevo thread with a bang.

Biblical scripture was not made up by goat herders 200 years ago. Some of the earlier parts of Genesis may be based on oral traditions that go back 10,000 years or more. Biblical scripture is also inspired by God (at least for me). Even in a naturalistic sense there is a tremendous amount of truths in scripture. For example, the Bible says sodomy is bad. Science has finally caught up with the goat herders in this instance.

81 posted on 12/18/2001 11:52:22 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Aquinasfan
How Did We Get Here? (A Cyber Debate)

"In 1996, NOVA Online asked two leading spokesmen in the evolution/creation debate to discuss the question, "How did we get here?" The participants have agreed to keep their letters to less than 500 words and have been given equal time to write them. It should be noted that neither Miller nor Johnson were involved in the production of NOVA's Odyssey of Life."

Reading this exchange of letters makes it fairly clear that Miller would prefer to discuss science and Johnson would rather not.

82 posted on 12/18/2001 12:01:10 PM PST by cogitator
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To: Woahhs
This is part of why these discussions always become so heated. Evolutionist ask questions in the wrong direction so often, "Creationist" are left with little else to conclude but that it's intentional.

I firmly believe that those people who get their panties in a bundle over my last statement forget the fundamental tenet of science: An theory should be testable or an experiment should be repeatable. If you invoke a creator who dabbles here and there, then you can have neither. Scientific thought should say nothing about either. This is my intent here.

ID theory is not about proving a Creator; it's about dis -proving evolutionary theory by making it testable. ID theorists test evolutionary concepts by the tenents of the information sciences, and that's not ground where evolution fairs well. When you want to find out where and how a complex, molecular, programmed system comes about, you don't ask a biologist. You ask an information theorist and/or a chemist.

To put it firmly: I'll believe it when I see it print.

We are getting back to the original statement I cut and pasted not too long ago in post 23" "I've read the books, and I've been to the conferences, and I think it's intriguing," he says. "What I want to see is some science being done based on that paradigm that produces results that could not be produced by the Darwinian paradigm." (Derrick Chignell).

Or, as Dr. Kenneth Miller says of Prof. Behe, "If I thought I had an idea that would completely revolutionize cell biology in the same way that Professor Behe thinks he has an idea that would revolutionize biochemistry," he says, "I would be talking about that idea at every single meeting of my peers I could possibly get to."

Putting tin-foil hat arguments aside, why does the ID crowd insist on attacking evolution in the public forum rather than the scientific forum? If their arguments are so incredibly strong, why isn't he pushing it in a scientific forum? If the data is there, why aren't the ID at every meeting? Despite the tin-foil hat crowd's protestations, the scientific field may have considerable inertia when it comes to new ideas, but it isn't immovable. Look at the troubles Punctuated Equilibrium had when it was introduced in the 70's.

Perhaps if Behe, Wells, and Johnson spent more time working on scientific papers and devising experiments instead of criss-crossing the country giving talks and debates, there would be a working Intelligent Design theory that is testable. Perhaps the fact that ID is more interested in disproving evolution instead of proving it's own ideas is a sign of its validity, no?

83 posted on 12/18/2001 12:11:00 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: ThinkPlease
Perhaps if Behe, Wells, and Johnson spent more time working on scientific papers and devising experiments instead of criss-crossing the country giving talks and debates, there would be a working Intelligent Design theory that is testable.

Well, as someone asked jlogajan in a prior post, have you read Behe's book?
84 posted on 12/18/2001 12:41:07 PM PST by Binghamton_native
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To: Delta-Boudreaux
Amen.
85 posted on 12/18/2001 12:43:35 PM PST by rdb3
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To: ThinkPlease
why does the ID crowd insist on attacking evolution in the public forum rather than the scientific forum? If their arguments are so incredibly strong, why isn't he pushing it in a scientific forum?

Your response answers your own question. I wrote six lines: just six. Do you really think your credibility isn't injured when you can't address six lines without misdirection?

Don't you see how weak a position looks when it insists it's exempt from considering something because it doesn't comes from the journals? You might as well say the Pro-Life movement is just a few fringe people because you never see it on TV.

I read what the ID theorists had to say...Behe, Dembski, et al. I wouldn't presume to write to you if you were answering the issues they brought up. You're not. Insult me all you want. It won't change the fact you just aren't refuting these guys. When you write a paper disproving Dembski's math instead of relying on why the editor of your favorite journal thinks he's full of it, I'll start to believe you're not sticking your fingers in your ears and humming real loud.

86 posted on 12/18/2001 12:53:33 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: ThinkPlease
How do you scientifically test the idea of a Creator?

Exactly.....

87 posted on 12/18/2001 12:54:34 PM PST by dubyagee
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To: dubyagee
Actually, to all whove particpated: this has been the most informative and entertaining debate I've seen in a great while. Lots of rational discussion with very little ad-hominem argument or insult. You are one bunch of smart guys. Let's have a beer sometime. My 2cents: There appear to be reasonable grounds to question evolution, and most often the questioners are not treated with the respect they deserve. If they are not allowed in the debate, then there is no science, only dogma. This is a problem with the global warming debate also. It's great to see both sides so fully aired! ABSENCE OF PROOF IS NOT PROOF OF ABSENCE
88 posted on 12/18/2001 1:08:43 PM PST by Glock22
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To: Glock22
If they are not allowed in the debate, then there is no science, only dogma.

In terms of establishing a scientific basis for their ideas, to get into the debate they have to follow the established scientific norms (presentations at scientific meetings, papers in scientific journals). If they don't, then isn't a matter of them being "allowed in the debate"; they are operationally excluding themselves.

Science operates according to one basic method: you put your data and conclusions on the table for everyone to see and potentially cut to pieces. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Behe, Wells, Dembski and Johnson (and other less notable lights) haven't even tried to get into the kitchen.

(I might be watching too much Iron Chef.)

89 posted on 12/18/2001 2:04:26 PM PST by cogitator
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To: cogitator
to get into the debate they have to follow the established scientific norms

Apparently, they don't. Their ideas are getting out anyway. You can find them all over the Internet. What could it hurt? Evaluate them for yourself!

We'd love to hear back from you.

90 posted on 12/18/2001 2:30:50 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: cogitator
Oh, and please resist the temptation to read only the refutations. It will show for the same reasons.
91 posted on 12/18/2001 2:41:12 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: laredo44
As I understand it, physics as currently taught has huge difficulties. Namely, relativity and quantum mechanics are incompatible. That doesn't prevent the teaching of physics.

Did I say somewhere that I wanted to outlaw the teaching of evolution? I'm in favor of teaching facts, not promoting a particular theory.

Since relativity and quantum mechanics are both presented in college physics course, I'm presuming from your post that you're in favor of teaching the merits of both intelligent design AND evolution. If not, then why not? Why is it okay to present conflicting theories for physics but not for the origin of life?

92 posted on 12/18/2001 4:01:08 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: cogitator
Science operates according to one basic method: you put your data and conclusions on the table for everyone to see and potentially cut to pieces.

That's the ideal, I agree. But unfortunately that's not the way it always works, either in science or politics. Dissent is often not tolerated and woe be to the graduate student who selects a doctoral thesis that is at odds with the beliefs of the majority of the department.

93 posted on 12/18/2001 4:04:55 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: Woahhs
Don't you see how weak a position looks when it insists it's exempt from considering something because it doesn't comes from the journals? You might as well say the Pro-Life movement is just a few fringe people because you never see it on TV.

Straw man argument, try again. (Note that the length of the response is likely directly correlated to the quality. Funny that, eh?)

But, consider this: if Dembski publishes his work, even as poster paper at a scientific meeting, his work enters the mindset of some of the more brilliant minds in their fields. Now, Dembski's a pretty bright fella, I have no doubt, as his argument is fairly complex. But he's just one mind, and the field is large. If his ideas have merit, then you have the advantage of a multitude of people working on the same problem from different angles. But he's got to put it out there. He's no stranger to publishing, as his resume has about 3-4 published papers, so why doesn't he do it?

I read what the ID theorists had to say...Behe, Dembski, et al. I wouldn't presume to write to you if you were answering the issues they brought up. You're not. Insult me all you want. It won't change the fact you just aren't refuting these guys. When you write a paper disproving Dembski's math instead of relying on why the editor of your favorite journal thinks he's full of it, I'll start to believe you're not sticking your fingers in your ears and humming real loud.

Sounds like that is also what you are doing with respect to my question. I'm just a humble astronomer asking an interesting question to other humble people. While I have not read Dembski's books, I have read some of his published work on his websites, however, since you dislike long arguments (and frankly, I don't have the time to type in the book it would require), I'll pass for the moment. Perhaps after the Christmas season.

94 posted on 12/18/2001 5:01:57 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: ThinkPlease
While I have not read Dembski's books, I have read some of his published work on his websites, however, since you dislike long arguments (and frankly, I don't have the time to type in the book it would require), I'll pass for the moment. Perhaps after the Christmas season.

No...you guys never do. I won't hold my breath. HMMMMMMMMMM.

95 posted on 12/18/2001 5:11:48 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: DallasMike
Since relativity and quantum mechanics are both presented in college physics course, I'm presuming from your post that you're in favor of teaching the merits of both intelligent design AND evolution. If not, then why not? Why is it okay to present conflicting theories for physics but not for the origin of life?

QM and SR give reasonable results for the regimes in which they are valid. Outside their respective areas of validity, they aren't very good at explaining things. QM is especially good at explaining the physical behavior of atoms and molecules, while SR is especially good at explaining things that move closer to the speed of light. So, while they conflict in some places, there is a good consensus that they explain things very well.

Compare this to ID and Evolution, where one has a consensus that it best explains observations, and ID has really not had time to formally present a few ideas. Perhaps when ID has had a chance to be fully developed and if ID can explain things to a greater degree than evolution, then it deserves a spot in the scientific classroom. It has a long way to go first.

96 posted on 12/18/2001 5:15:29 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: Woahhs
No...you guys never do. I won't hold my breath. HMMMMMMMMMM.

I see, so you can insult me, but I can't insult you? Whatever. So far I haven't seen anything in your arguments that can't be applied at yourself. When you post something substantative, let me know.

97 posted on 12/18/2001 5:17:55 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: ThinkPlease
I'm not making an argument doc. I'm telling you straight. You guys aren't making your case.
98 posted on 12/18/2001 5:22:58 PM PST by Woahhs
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To: Woahhs
I'm not making an argument doc. I'm telling you straight. You guys aren't making your case.

Is your name Phaedrus or something? What is it with IDers anyway? Show us these great analytical minds of yours! You had to arrive at your conclusion somehow! Cross our palms with knowledge, O great ones!

99 posted on 12/18/2001 5:26:03 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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To: longshadow
bump two
100 posted on 12/18/2001 6:37:33 PM PST by ThinkPlease
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