Posted on 12/12/2001 7:21:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
btw I have not posted a word about my beliefs on the subject, just my disappointment at what you think is funny. Good luck to you.
Go to Post #71 where patriot71 makes the following statement:
I do, however, have problems with those who believe something and then try to pass it off as sound Christian theology, and then get pi$$ed when you point out that's it not sound, nor is it Biblical at all.
Biblewonk then says "the OTHER thing they do..."
He agrees with him.
Look, I'll be totally honest with you. I am an evangelical Christian, have done some research into the RCC using their own material - the online Catholic encyclopedia, RCC catechism etc - and I have some serious issues with a lot of it. I'm not here to attack you, always like a constructive discussion, but just wanted to be honest up front. I don't usually post on these threads, but your post caught my eye and raised questions.
That said, I am not familiar with the Guadalupe appearance (I have read about others, approved ones and otherwise) - Mary appears pregnant? WHY would she do that? Jesus is the risen Lord - He is not in the womb. That seems counterproductive to me, as if He is hidden away and the emphasis is taken away from Him. And to say she is a living tabernacle is a little hard to handle - maybe she was at one time, but she is no longer pregnant - why be represented as such?
Also, you said that you know that if a church is built, Jesus is there in the tabernacle. Are you referring to the temple that Mary requested be built to her? If so, why does she not say that he is to build a temple for Jesus? Is His presence to be assumed, as you said? Again the emphasis is drawn away.
In the Gospel, the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, Mary brought Jesus to us when she said yes to God. Mary also brings Jesus to us when she appears, just like she did at Guadalupe. We can be like Elizabeth when Mary went to visit her, or like John the Baptist who was sanctified in Elizabeths womb when Mary spoke to her.
If Mary had said no, God would have found another willing vessel and we would be talking about her right now instead, don't you think? So in that sense, Mary didn't "bring" Jesus to us. And why does she need to bring Jesus to us when she appears? Especially in the form of an unborn child. Where is the gospel message in that? In fact, since I am not familiar with the Guadalupe appearance, is the gospel message found in Mary's words at all?
No doubt you didn't expect to get into this when you made your post. :) Honestly no attack intended, just seeking perspective for stuff I find incredible. And I find the fact that Jesus is not mentioned at all to be pretty hard to accept. You'd think that Mary's presence/involvement would be the one that was assumed rather than focused on. Sorry, the questions just sort of snowballed. Thanks.
Y'all go there ya'here!
That being said, yes, you are right, Jesus is the risen Lord, I agree 100%. Interesting we are in the Christmas season and there are mangers all over showing the Infant Jesus. We all know that Jesus is not an infant anymore so why do we depict Him as such? It helps us remember.
Our Lady of Guadalupe is also known as Our Lady of the Americas. Perhaps God in His wisdom chose to present Mary pregnant because He forsaw that the great evil of abortion would shadow our land. Also, there are pictures of Jesus with His Mother when he was an infant, a child, a young man, after His death and after His resurrection. I suppose only God knows why He chose to depict Our Lady this way. I don't believe that it takes anything away from Jesus, do you? After all, Jesus was concieved in Mary's womb.
The Church that was built was not 'for' Mary. I'm sure you've noticed that most Catholic Church's are named after saints, I for instance attend St. Anthony of Padua, we honor saints by naming Church's after them, thats all. It is not 'for' them, the Church's are for the people to come together in. Jesus is always present in the tabernacle.
Where is the Gospel message of Jesus in Mary's womb? (I think that was your last question) In Luke. When Mary went 'with haste' to her cousin Elizabeth and John the Baptist was sanctified when Mary spoke to Elizabeth. "the moment your greeting sounded in my ears, the child within me leapt for joy."
Perhaps you will hear Our Lady's voice and Jesus will bless you also, as He sanctified John the Baptist, when He was still in His Mother's womb.
And of course there are people who do not believe it, and they do not have too, thats fine with me.
I believe it, millions of others believe it. Pope John Paul II believes it, thats enough for me.
Thanks Cap'n. I did not know that.
Our Lord will certainly thank you some day for so strongly defending his mother!
That being said, yes, you are right, Jesus is the risen Lord, I agree 100%. Interesting we are in the Christmas season and there are mangers all over showing the Infant Jesus. We all know that Jesus is not an infant anymore so why do we depict Him as such? It helps us remember.
We are human, and we tend to need remembrences for different things. We commemorate many things for various reasons - that was not my question. I asked why MARY would present herself this way. If your answer is that possibly she herself knew that we would need a reminder, then I say that there are far more suitable reminders of the gospel - namely the risen Lord Himself...which brings us back around to my initial question - if Jesus is not shown in the message, how will others know He is there?
Where is the Gospel message of Jesus in Mary's womb? (I think that was your last question) In Luke. When Mary went 'with haste' to her cousin Elizabeth and John the Baptist was sanctified when Mary spoke to Elizabeth. "the moment your greeting sounded in my ears, the child within me leapt for joy."
No, I think you misunderstood. I was not asking where in Mary's womb was the gospel message, I was asking where in the Guadalupe message from Mary do we find the gospel message. Where in Mary's words do we find that she explains that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life? Rather we see her claiming to be everything that we need in and of herself. If you think that is a stretch, I reference the words of your post -
"Listen and let it penetrate your heart, my dear little son, do not be troubled or weighed down with grief. Do not fear any illness or vexation, anxiety or pain. Am I not here who am your Mother? Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not your fountain of life? Are you not in the folds of my mantle? In the crossing of my arms? Is there anything else you need?"
Here she says that she can keep him from illness, worry and pain. She can protect him and maintain his life. She asks if there is anything else that he needs, totally suggesting that she can provide it, whatever it may be. NO mention of Jesus Christ as the provider of anything. One not familiar with Christianity would in no way glean His presence in this message. It is simply not possible.
But to answer your answer - I see nothing in your Luke reference which indicates the gospel message as we find it in, for example, John 3.
One other comment, as I read again the words of Mary, with regard to the temple you said
The Church that was built was not 'for' Mary. I'm sure you've noticed that most Catholic Church's are named after saints, I for instance attend St. Anthony of Padua, we honor saints by naming Church's after them, thats all. It is not 'for' them, the Church's are for the people to come together in. Jesus is always present in the tabernacle.
However, Mary herself said
"...I ardently desire that a temple be built here for me where I will show and offer all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful Mother, the Mother of all who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who have confidence in me. Here I will hear there weeping and sorrows, and will remedy and alleviate their sufferings, necessites and misfortunes."
SHE will offer all HER love, HER compassion, HER help, HER protection. He is to love HER, cry out to HER, have confidence in HER. SHE will hear their crying, SHE will ease their pain, SHE will provide their necessities and SHE will rectify their misfortunes. She said she wanted a temple built FOR HER, and then proceeded to say what SHE would do in it if obeyed, not what Jesus would do, not even what Jesus would do through her. It certainly sounds like the temple is for her, and once again, Jesus is sorely lacking, and to the uninformed potential convert, there is NO way that Jesus would be found in what is given.
Thanks for the response.
Sounds like it's all about HER! She's beginning to look like a Clinton... (Has she requested a library?)
Just being,
Go ahead and believe what you believe, but don't disrespect my religion. I don't need you to try to save my soul because God already sent His Only beloved Son and He gave him a real human mother. Not someone to worship but yes, someone to love, respect and emulate.
Woman Who Says Yes
"Mary, maiden true,
Woman who says yes,
Pray for us now
And at the hour of our death.
Please, bring us to Jesus, our Lord and Master true.
Your Son and your God,
The One for W.hom you live.
In the fullness of our time,
A woman bore a son.
Found to be with child but protected by her husband's love,
She dared to say: "yes" to the angel's way;
Such courage, and strength, and grace!
"Mary, be not afraid",
Were Gabriel's words that day,
"Highly favored one, pure bearer of the Holy Son.
Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Covered by His Love.
Magnify the Lord now,
Bring joy to everyone.
Fr. Jim McKearney
I would instead ask, why has God always used humans? Everyone knows that He could have done it all Himself. We understand and believe that there is an omnipotent God, but as humans we relate with and better understand relationships with humans. If you were truly knowledgable about Salvation History you would know that Mary always leads people to her Son. That God used her as a conduit that humans can understand and relate to.
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