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Get Enforced Atheism Out Of Our Schools
Toogood Reports ^ | 11/07/01 | Isaiah Flair

Posted on 12/06/2001 2:50:38 PM PST by Dr. Octagon

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To: ConsistentLibertarian
Does she take any position on the issue at hand?
101 posted on 12/07/2001 11:09:03 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Dr. Octagon
Even granting the truth of the claim, that would suggest that the answer is to return to the kind of "good" totalitarianism they had in the Communist hey day of the former Soviet Union. Is that really what you had in mind?
102 posted on 12/07/2001 11:09:51 AM PST by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: Dr. Octagon
She wanted to terminate the teaching license of anyone who had ever given or received oral sex, even if it was oral sex between married persons. (Karen Johnson has, I'm told, been divorced many times. Hmmm ... ) Her argument was that "the schools are a 21st-century Gomorrah."
103 posted on 12/07/2001 11:12:00 AM PST by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
Not good to bad, bad to worse

I want totalitarianism out all together.

Local control, not The Federal Office of Fascist Humanistic Drug Your Kids And Lower Standards.

104 posted on 12/07/2001 11:14:01 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Dr. Octagon
I agree. We really need to get the voucher system in place. No BS too!! Keep all the liberal agendas out of the mix.
105 posted on 12/07/2001 11:14:20 AM PST by ThomasMore
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To: ThomasMore
Ditto that.
106 posted on 12/07/2001 11:17:36 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: Dr. Octagon
I'm asking you what you make of the data: Under a system with a high degree of centralized control, students made it through two years of calculus by the end of the tenth grade. You say "it's a bad system". What I'm asking is how you account for the data given that it's a bad system.
107 posted on 12/07/2001 11:29:51 AM PST by ConsistentLibertarian
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Comment #108 Removed by Moderator

To: ConsistentLibertarian
I suggest that any successes came despite centralized totalitarianism, not because of it. There might have been any number of countervailing factors, such as academically focused teachers.Totalitarianism itself is a problem, because it takes life out of the hands of those who live it. Democracy should be local. And parents should have more rights over their children's education than administrators. For a further example of why totalitarianism is bad, check out either of the books I mentioned in this thread, or check out the other thread I referenced.
109 posted on 12/07/2001 11:36:20 AM PST by Dr. Octagon
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
I thought is was particularly classy that people conceded the point -- schools are not enforcing atheism.

Two stories.

My daughter when in 3rd grade used to bring in a childs bible to read in free reading time. Her teacher told her she wasn't allowed to read it in school.

Another teacher in 4th was having the class read a book about a town that made a patch work quilt. The moral of the story was to emphasise all the different gifts each person had. The teacher got the children excited over a project where they were all going to draw an 8 1/2 by 11 picture and put them all together and display their own patch-work quilt in the hallway. This teacher did this every year. My daughter drew a cross. The teacher changed her mind and only placed a few selected examples instead.

Neither of these stories was lost on my daughter. She understands that she is not expected to bring up her faith in school. She is in highschool now and knows enough not to write about faith type issues for her english class. She believs if she does she would get a lower grade.

110 posted on 12/07/2001 11:42:31 AM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
(2) The same biblical arguments for Creationism would make trouble for a Copernican theories of planetary motion, as well as contemporary basic science. Ie, plate techtonics -- the continental plates shift so slowly, it's hard to reconcile plate techtonics with a young earth theory, and basic astronomy -- many stars are so far it takes millions of years for the light to get here, again hard to reconcile with young earth theories. It's a mistake to think that it all stops with evolution

False. You have been misled about what the bible says.

111 posted on 12/07/2001 11:46:59 AM PST by VRWC_minion
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To: VRWC_minion
"Good grades"...what I found out after I became a Christian about the mindset of public school teachers was like trying to get a hetero date in a Lesbian cult--COVEN...forget it--pull up the anchor--change the course--full speed ahead!
112 posted on 12/07/2001 11:55:59 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: rugggud
Teachers need to teach, not preach.

108 posted on 12/7/01 12:31 PM Pacific by rugggud

Teachers need to "teach", not preach(atheism).

113 posted on 12/07/2001 11:58:16 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
You're attempting to make the case that if we can't see it it doesn't exist (the 'evidence' you refer to). Anything not tangible or visible or somehow measurable does not exist and so must be taken 'on faith'.
Am I wrong?

That is what science is based on and it's quite logical. Of course, the fact that 'scientific' theories and hypothesis change constantly and most of the 'evidence' is usually open to much interpertation is an important part of that argument. One that you seem to gloss over, but never mind.
I would contend (I won't presume to speak for 'all Christians') that belief in God and acceptance of the bible as the Word of God is certainly based on faith, although over the centuries many bibical places and people have been found to have existed or the events told in the bible are bourn out by newly found physical evidence, but that simply underlines faith and isn't necessary to sustain it.

I can agree that in a very general manner, science is the observation of what exists and then explaining it. Often incorrectly - but the point is to discover, observe and explain. This can be very beneficial to mankind.

Religious (here meaning Christian) people acknowledge science and both it's achievments and it's failings and limitations. I don't believe that science and faith are at odds, just residing in different spheres, as it were.

Yes, Christians celebrate the 'unseen', that's why it's called 'faith', but we see God's hand in many manifestations, not simply the tangible or the measurable, as science requires. I suppose the animus between faith and science comes about when schools teach 'science' such as evolution and treat it as solid, unquestioned fact with flimsy evidence to support it, but treat religious faith and creationism with total disdain and even ridicule. It's all in the attitude.

I don't expect creationism to be taught in public schools and I celebrate my faithin God and Christ with no need for a piece of rock to 'prove it' to me, but unfortunately, public schools downplay religious faith to the point that it's no longer simply science over faith but the argument is presented as intelligence over stupidity. That's truly unfortunate.

I'm not saying this is your point of view but it's a common one in atheist circles and one that may justify and enhance some atheists view of themselves but it generates much resentment among religious people, which comprise the majority. Thus we see the 'You're all going to rot in HELL!!!!' religious rants and the equally useless 'Only illiterate fools believe in those fairy tales in that bunch of nonsense called the bible!
Sound familiar?

I respect science and benefit from it every day. I would hope the atheist and generally unconvinced would respect people of faith and not attempt to pigeon-hole them as naive Luddites. We are not.
Unfortunately, in schools and especially universities, the man or woman of faith, especially Christianity (Eastern religions have always been popular on campus) is often ridiculed by the man or woman of science, and when that occurs, nothing is gained. People of real faith will not abandon it for man's praise and most science-oriented people will not trust what they cannot see, measure or observe in some form. So be it.

114 posted on 12/07/2001 12:13:42 PM PST by Jim Scott
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To: Jim Scott
I do know that teachers have gotten into official hot water simply for reading a bible in an empty classroom during a scheduled lunch break.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Incidents such as the one you site are a clear violation of the First Amendment. If the teachers want to read a Bible, praise Allah or chant in honor of the Sun God Helios during their free time, it is their Constitutional right to do so.

If every such violation of First Amendment rights were vigorously litigated, such foolishness by Politically Correct school administrators would quickly come to a halt.

115 posted on 12/07/2001 12:24:04 PM PST by Polybius
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Comment #116 Removed by Moderator

To: rugggud
You WOULD think that..."That teachers should "teach" religion"---how about "thinking" vs brainwashing?
117 posted on 12/07/2001 12:37:22 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: rugggud
You WOULD think(imply) that..."That teachers should "teach" religion"---how about "thinking" vs brainwashing?

117 posted on 12/7/01 1:37 PM Pacific by f.Christian

118 posted on 12/07/2001 12:40:44 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: EBUCK
Public school is not - should not - (be) intended to teach religion, moral values, sexual orientation, or any other such "individual" values. That is your (read-parents!) duty! Public schools should/must stay out of it all together. The fact that government (beit local-national goverment) funds public schools, constitutionally prohibits them from endorsing any belief system (evolution theory is not a belief system) . Why is that so hard to get across. Until a voucher system comes along you are all going to have to do you best to instill your "individual" values in you children. And public schools are going to have to keep teaching a non-religious fact-based curriculum. Who are any of you to decide which values should be taught to my children? And who am I to push those values on your children? Get it? Public schools are in a tug-of-war between the religious lobby and the rule of LAW and until the law is changed (read constitutional ammendment) the law will continue to win (thank you John Cougar-Melloncamp).
119 posted on 12/07/2001 12:41:42 PM PST by EBUCK
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To: EBUCK
"evolution theory is not a belief system"...very interesting--funny(not)!
120 posted on 12/07/2001 12:43:55 PM PST by f.Christian
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