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To: SpookBrat
Thanks for the point by point rebuttal, I knew someone here would be interested in knowing what the opposition was publishing relative to the topic of this tread. To be forwarned is to be forarmed.

There are those whose minds are made up to such a degree that they will not accept one word of one or the other of these disertations. There are others who see some truth in both.

Personally I do believe that some women are truely distressed that they aborted. The eastern cultures and religons while freely permitting abortions also have rituals designed to deal with the post abortion distress if it comes up. The rituals are kind, not pumitive. The women of these Eastern Cultures do not feel guilt from the abortion, they feel the sadness that could come from any lost child.

Most of the Western post abortion stress comes from the artificial guilt imposed by those who are against abortion. Mostly, American women are not allowed to feel the pure grief of a lost child. Western woman who dare to express such grief are generally slapped in the face with guilt, thus they suffer their grief alone and without relief.

67 posted on 12/06/2001 3:13:47 PM PST by pcl
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To: pcl
The women of these Eastern Cultures do not feel guilt from the abortion, they feel the sadness that could come from any lost child.

You appear to be incorrect. This is excerpted from an article at http://www.belmont.edu/philosophy/courses/Japandabortion.html

Liquid Life: Abortion in Japan


Taken from W. Lafleur

Ronnie Littlejohn

A growing number of temples in Japan are offering mizuko kuyo rituals. There are ritual ceremonies of apology and remembrance for aborted fetuses, or the stillborn and miscarried. By far the most common motivation for the mizuko kuyo rituals is that they are religious services specifically attuned to the needs of parents who had abortions and who seek to assuage the guilt they feel.

Some temples have as the reason for their existence the mizuko kuyo rites. These temples have been the object of much public criticism. They provide rites almost exclusively for aborted fetuses. An example of such a temple is Shiun-zan Jizo-ji, in the city of Chichibu about two hours from Tokyo. In English the name is "the Temple of Jizo on the Mountain of the Purple Cloud." Although called a temple, it is really a mountain bochi, a cemetery or memorial park. There are rows upon rows of Jizo images, all diminutive, child-sized. Virtually every one wears a large red bib, the sort usually worn by an infant or young child in Japan. Around the images are toys, umbrellas, garments, and hats. Two things are conflated here which the West holds as separate as possible: the cemetery and the nursery. Persons who come here are usually parents and siblings of the deceased child. The actions they undertake to show loving attention to the dead child include washing the image of Jizo, providing fresh flowers, and bringing a toy or garment.

Buddhist parents think of the aborted mizuko as being sent back to this liquid state to bide its time until another opportunity at incarnation. Mizuko Kuyo rites are not funerals. These aborted fetuses or dead infants are not seen as part of the ancestral dead. Mizuko are in a kind of children's limbo called Sai-no-kawara or "the Riverbank in the land of Sai". This is a boundary place. There are actually places in Japan which are emblematic of Sai-no-kawara because of their forlorn feel. These are usually sea shore beaches. Little stone Jizo icons are often arranged in these places in rows of hundreds at a time. An impressive such place is at the northernmost tip of the island of Sado in the Japan sea. It can be reached only by walking from the road. Unlike the more hopeful and comforting atmosphere of the Purple Cloud Temple, these places are sad and gloomy.

76 posted on 12/06/2001 4:33:55 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: pcl
Well, I'll admit I'm interested. My husband and I went to see Aerosmith last night and I printed your article out and read it on the long drive to Dallas.

I'll have to think about your thoughts on other religions some more. I find the study of religion fascinating myself. I don’t know you personally and I certainly am hoping this doesn’t come across as judgmental towards you. But I’m seeing you don’t give Christians a lot of credit for the amount of compassion and love they can offer along with their ability to not judge someone else’s sins. Me? I’ve got plenty of them…I’m the worst person I know. LOL I can never judge the condition of ones soul, but I can judge their actions or my own as “good” or “evil”. I don’t know too many bad “Christians” myself, and if they are bad “Christians”, they aren’t really Christians. Mostly I know very loving, compassionate ones.

The rock thing bothered me the most. Not because I’m opposed to other religions, but because the idea of a ROCK offering some kind of healing is ludicrous to me. A hard, cold rock in exchange for a baby is repugnant to me. Of course, it has something to do with my own personal belief that only THE “spirit” can provide comfort. Why wouldn’t they offer a woman a cross? Would it be because she would be reminded of what the man who died on it, said about murder? To me that would suggest, deny God (the Judeo Christian God) and everything he says, and you won’t suffer the guilt he imposes. Deny God and killing your unborn is OK. You know, the Ninevites didn’t know the Hebrew God, and they still felt guilt and shame when they were “slapped in the face” with their sins. It doesn’t matter what God you know…..you are still going to have feelings of guilt. Soooooooo…..offer her a rock and it will help her “not feel guilty”. A ROCK isn’t going to make it go away. There is such a thing as appropriate shame. That’s what is wrong with this country, IMHO. People have no “appropriate” shame for their bad behavior.

Deny God and you can do whatever you want and not feel guilty. Guilt, just like any other emotion, is God given. When the spirit is ready, it will move your heart into action of repentance or amend making. Existence of guilt can also keep you from doing something wrong. If human beings had no guilt at all, we would all be sociopaths, and anarchy would reign. Human beings would cease to exist without the feeling of “guilt” or "shame". Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

I have never personally witnessed a woman being “slapped in the face with guilt”. I suppose it happens. When I hear of or personally witness a woman confessing her abortion, I hear sad tears and I see arms wrapped around the poor woman. I’ve never seen smoke coming out of someone’s nose while condemning the woman to the innermost parts of hell. I think the Pro-Choice movement would have the world believe this happens.

About being closed or open minded. Abortion is probably the ONLY thing I will NEVER “open” my mind for. I’ve made up my mind. To be open minded for me personally would be questioning my stance. I do not question my stance. I believe it is wrong and I will always believe it is wrong. Wrong for the baby and the mothers life. Anything else, I can be swayed with a logical argument (not easily, but there is a chance). LOL

79 posted on 12/06/2001 5:17:44 PM PST by SpookBrat
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