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New Federal Patriot Act Turns Retailers into Spies against Customers
The Boston Globe ^ | 11/28/2001 | By Scott Bernard Nelson, The Boston Globe

Posted on 11/23/2001 2:58:00 PM PST by Smogger

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To: tex-oma
Like anything the IRS wants to know about you, that's what.

But you don't understand. How can the IRS really enforce all the new taxes on capital gains if it can't fully document your original purchase price? Even more, how can they prosecute you for violating an arcane and confusing government law when you purchased an item, if they don't enact such government laws in the first place?

It's really very simple.

261 posted on 11/24/2001 9:58:26 AM PST by Elihu Burritt
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To: copycat
To state that equating buisness with "public" action facilitates the change to fascism (ie public ownership of all industry) is hardly name-calling, but an observation.

But the observation is based on a false premise...you are misunderstanding the definition of "public"...perhaps intentionally to make your point.
I am saying PUBLIC...like Public...ie customers in the marketplace....You are saying PUBLIC like government.
We can never discuss this rationally using different definitions.

262 posted on 11/24/2001 10:00:33 AM PST by JD86
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To: copycat
That's what lawyers call a distinction without a difference..:)
and being charged with faciliation is not a whole lot better than being charged with the crime, if you know what I mean....
263 posted on 11/24/2001 10:02:49 AM PST by JD86
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To: JD86
search (sûrch)
v. searched, search·ing, search·es
v. tr.
To make a thorough examination of; look over carefully in order to find something; explore.
To make a careful examination or investigation of; probe: search one's conscience for the right solution to the problem.
Law. To make a thorough check of (a legal document); scrutinize: search a title.
To examine in order to find something lost or concealed.
To examine the person or personal effects of in order to find something lost or concealed.
To come to know; learn.

v. intr.
To conduct a thorough investigation; seek: were searching for clues.

n.
An act of searching.
Law. The exercise of right of search.

Idiom

How is it NOT a search? Are they not looking for something, in this case, evidence of a cash transaction in excess of $10K?

264 posted on 11/24/2001 10:03:39 AM PST by copycat
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To: JD86
I never called you a fascist. You said I did. I'll not play this game with you.
265 posted on 11/24/2001 10:04:18 AM PST by copycat
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To: VA Advogado
What I am saying is that we the people own the government. The government works for us.
266 posted on 11/24/2001 10:06:10 AM PST by Native American Female Vet
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Comment #267 Removed by Moderator

To: TheOtherOne
The question is this extra information of reporting the name and other details of the individual who paid in cash. That is the disclosure that is prohibited without more.

You are locking the barn door after the horse is out. This has been the law for years. They have only added merchants to the list of enterprises who already report cash transactions over $10,000. That tells me the criminals have adjusted to the prior system. They used to buy cars to launder the cash. Now they are buying other stuff. I know you know this stuff and I know you know the argument about locks on the trunks of cars is a red herring. And I think you just like to argue....so you really must be a lawyer...:) Although we do not agree on the "reasonableness" of this law, thanks for sharing your opinions. You have given me things to think about.

268 posted on 11/24/2001 10:08:47 AM PST by JD86
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To: copycat
whatever..:)
269 posted on 11/24/2001 10:09:20 AM PST by JD86
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To: VA Advogado
VA ADVOGADO...working ceaselessly for a government of lawyers, not of men.
270 posted on 11/24/2001 10:09:48 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: copycat
Why don't you want to just write a check? This is the law, maybe it shouldn't be the law....that is not the question. If you want to challenge the law in court...go buy something for $10,000 in cash and refuse to give your name. Then tell me how it works out. Personally I believe you and I could do this all day and you are never going to see any viewpoint other than the one you started with....so please enjoy your opinion and have a nice day...:)
271 posted on 11/24/2001 10:14:31 AM PST by JD86
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To: JD86
I asked you if you are a liberal or conservative. You then asked me what I thought you were. I told you what I thought and now you dont like the answer. You should not have asked if you didnt want an answer.

I pointed out what FR is about because it did not seem you knew this was a conservative forum.

272 posted on 11/24/2001 10:16:57 AM PST by Native American Female Vet
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To: Smogger
I wish I had 10K in CASH to wave in front of a retailer. Honestly, how many people carry around $10,000 on a normal shopping trip?
273 posted on 11/24/2001 10:17:48 AM PST by cake_crumb
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To: JD86
And I think you just like to argue....so you really must be a lawyer...:)

I do like to argue. With FR, I get all the arguing I need or want.

This particular rule is not my biggest concern with the Patriot Act anyhow. There are some other search provisions that do truly offend the 4th Amendment. But I do think this starts getting close to the line. Here is my thinking:

If we all agree that it is reasonable for the Government to seek information on all cash purchases in excess of $10,000. What if they want to make it $1,000, do you have a problem with that? What about ALL cash transactions? What if they say all cash transactions over $10,000 require the seller to obtain a photo of the purchasor? Where does it stop? I am 100% for fighting terrorism and criminal behavior. What I see is solution which is not going to stop terrorism, but opens the door to futher monitoring of non-criminal tranactions by citizens. Also, in addition to those with an ulterior motive in spending cash there are many people who just plain like their privacy.

274 posted on 11/24/2001 10:18:41 AM PST by TheOtherOne
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To: JD86
hehehe....caught that, did you....that I was slipping in an apple to your orange argument (you didn't specify the Patriot Act, you know....) :)
275 posted on 11/24/2001 10:26:03 AM PST by Rowdee
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To: Native American Female Vet
I asked you if you are a liberal or conservative. You then asked me what I thought you were. I told you what I thought and now you dont like the answer. You should not have asked if you didnt want an answer.

Fair enough. I was stunned by your answer. So I won't ask you anything else...:)

I pointed out what FR is about because it did not seem you knew this was a conservative forum.

I lurked for over a year before I posted anything so I knew it was a conservative forum. Also, I have had lots of responses from other posters who consider themselves conservative who have agreed with some of my ideas. You are the first person in my life who has ever considered me a liberal...
that's why I don't like labels....if you are to the right of me, I am a liberal to you and I don't like being defined by your position, whatever it is.

276 posted on 11/24/2001 10:27:50 AM PST by JD86
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To: TheOtherOne
I will agree that all laws have intended consequences and that some laws have unintended consequences.
277 posted on 11/24/2001 10:30:31 AM PST by JD86
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To: Rowdee
hehehe....caught that, did you....that I was slipping in an apple to your orange argument (you didn't specify the Patriot Act, you know....) :)

Thanks for the humor break. Some of these posters are downright serious. I'll admit I may not have specified the Patriot Act in the response you read....
since I was answering what seemed like hundreds of them...:) but in my defense...that is the subject of this thread. Thanks again for the levity.

278 posted on 11/24/2001 10:33:20 AM PST by JD86
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To: JD86
"Why don't you want to just write a check?"

That is none of your or the governments business.

"This is the law, maybe it shouldn't be the law....that is not the question."

Yes it is.

279 posted on 11/24/2001 10:37:34 AM PST by Native American Female Vet
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To: pcl
This new law should not trouble anyone except someone with something to hide.

Really, Sir? Then tell us all about yourself. All the intimate details. Please leave nothing out.

What? We're not entitled to know? But gosh, we're just people here, and the people ARE the government. We really want to know. Especially if you spend more money on something than we think your income would "reasonably allow." You may have been stuffing a matress or a coffee-can for several years, but while you're probably a decent, honest person, we can't quite trust you, so come clean, pcl, right here, right now. Don't make us interrogate your family. This will be a very quick and clean process.

You wouldn't have anything to hide, would you? Then you have nothing to fear.

It's about the Children/Terrorists don't you know. You wouldn't want to be anti-child, or anti-terrorist, would you? Cough it up.

We mean you no harm. We have your best interests at heart. Always.

280 posted on 11/24/2001 10:38:25 AM PST by ihatemyalarmclock
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