Enumerated Powers and National I.D. Cards

Mercurial Times ^ | November 16, 2001 | Aaron Armitage

[Double Tap]

You have got to be joking. To compare cell phone use and credit card use to a mandatory national ID card is ridiculous. You can cancel your credit cards and your cell phone anytime and still live a normal life, unfettered by the government.

If a national ID card becomes law, just try living a normal life without one. What do you think you are going to do, just call up the Fedgov and say you don't wish to have one? Then you will be on the FBI's terrorist list.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!

[rockfish59]

how about tattooing a 'w' on all welfare recipient's foreheads?

how much go*****ed I.D. do they want? does hillary want a 1984 TV in every room? will the old tv show 'i spy' make a comeback?

after going through giving double sets of fingerprints, an FBI check and $60 fee, all for a concealed carry permit, they shouldn't even have to bother with me anymore!

[alpowolf]

It's not just the freedoms. Think of how miserable your life will be when some knucklehead govt employee puts bad data in your database file. Or sells it. Or uses it to track down your daughter. Sounds farfetched? IRS employees have been caught doing these things.

Then there's the expense. Ah, you say, Larry Ellison of Oracle will give the govt the database software for free. But he will charge for maintenance and upgrades. Besides, the major cost of a database is not the software. That's actually a tiny portion of the cost. Requirements analysis and design are far more expensive. And think of all the govt data entry people you'll need. The people to verify that everyone with access to the database is actually entitled to access. Etc, etc.

And access: to be usable on a national level millions of govt people would need access to your data. Does none of this concern you?

[Victoria Delsoul]

Thanks Saber.

[Mercuria]

BUMP to you, A.J....excellent column...a privilege to be hosting you!!! **g**

[Liberal Classic]

After delivering a speech in Columbia, Missouri, Justice Scalia was asked if he thought national I.D. cards would be unconstitutional. He said that the Fourth Amendment doesn't mention I.D. cards. True enough, as far as it goes (which isn't very far at all). Scalia then added that opponents should try to pass an amendment to the Constitution. "If you think it's a bad idea to have an identity card, persuade your fellow citizens."

I'm amazed. Should this read "If you think it's a good idea to have an identity card, persuade your fellow citizens?"

[SusanUSA]

If they had been in place on September 11, the World Trade Center would have been destroyed by airplanes hijacked by men with national I.D. cards in their wallets next to their driver’s licenses.

Bingo!

I have heard a proposal that NID cards be optional rather than mandatory. Now what would be the purpose in that? I think it's just an attempt to subtly slip it into america's conscious. "Nothing to worry about, don't like it don't do it" way to stifle debate. Silly, since most today wouldn't recognize the dangers of such a card. Soon after the attacks I watched a polling of a "Home Town Meeting" on this and the majority thought it would be an excellent idea!

Thank you for the flag to this. Another great job, AJ!

[SusanUSA]

Good points there!

[Askel5]

Thanks for the heads up, guy. Hopeful FR can put together some good talking points against the national ID.

Even if we don't manage to spark a movement for a Constitutional Amendment, it will come in handy for dealing with those on FR whose Cult of Personality has clouded their better judgment where trusting the government is concerned.

[Aristophanes]

I'd love to trade all the plastic crap in my wallet with a single, universal smart card that only I can use to make purchases or vouch for my identity. What am I missing?

Nothing much. Only the "666" on your forehead, and you'd be complete!

[annalex]

Agree completely. The real purpose for the national ID is to stop not terrorists but illegal aliens form getting welfare. To remedy that, they should issue ID cards to those who want something from the government, and leave the rest of us alone.

[George Smiley]

You do pretty good brainwork for bein such a youngun.

I hereby dub thee an "honorary old fart" for your endeavors.

[Ben Chad]

All this reminds me of the arguments that used to be made against caller id. Since I subscribed for CID, I haven't gotten too many prank calls and it is indispensable as a defense against telemarketing that admittedly using credit cards has probably stimulated. Add CID to my list of things to be grateful for this year. The same kind of argument has been made against being able to trace computer communications to individual computers. Would we be spending billions on fighting computer viruses if these things could be traced to their source? I don't particularly like having my finger print on file with the DMV but since I'm not planning on being a fugitive from law or ex wife any time soon, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I would imagine that criminals and child support deadbeats might feel otherwise. Re terrorists: NID card would seem a good first step at tracking people on visas which is sorely lacking right now. I hear the proposal that we'll start with just non-citizens. But if you don't have a good id system in place, how will you stop bad guys from just getting fake ids like the 9-11 guys and enjoy the mobility of citizens? I'm not an advocate, yet, of NID cards. Just trying to grasp implications I haven't thought of because my type is so egocentric and all. The first thing I thought after the plane hit the tower---there goes civil liberties down the drain. We are all suspect. Bastards.

Don't peg me as a big government sheeple type. If you want to fight government intrusion in the lives of ordinary citizens, let's start with the gestapo known as family court that is badly in need of some sunshine, and federal judges like Jerry Buckmyer (sp?) of Dallas who can order a welfare housing project to be built in your neighborhood. But that's another thread.

[NittanyLion]

Since I subscribed for CID, I haven't gotten too many prank calls and it is indispensable as a defense against telemarketing that admittedly using credit cards has probably stimulated. Add CID to my list of things to be grateful for this year. I don't particularly like having my finger print on file with the DMV but since I'm not planning on being a fugitive from law or ex wife any time soon, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I would imagine that criminals and child support deadbeats might feel otherwise.

All you stated here was what you think. No offense, but that really isn't relevant here - I'm more interested in the Constitution and the facts, as opposed to your personal experiences.

But if you don't have a good id system in place, how will you stop bad guys from just getting fake ids like the 9-11 guys and enjoy the mobility of citizens?

There is no such thing as a fraud-proof system. What leads you to believe determined terrorists won't obtain fake IDs of this new card just as easily as the current system? I'd venture to say the only people that will profit from this new scheme are the forgers.

[alpowolf]

since I'm not planning on being a fugitive from law or ex wife any time soon, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I would imagine that criminals and child support deadbeats might feel otherwise

So, anyone who wants freedom or privacy is a "criminal"?

I don't know you personally, but I'm willing to guess that if you caught someone peeping into your window while you're "gettin' busy" with your old lady you would kick his ass, or perhaps call the cops. What are you gonna do when you find out he is a cop?

I hate to be the one to break it to ya, but being an employee of the government does not in itself make someone a paragon of virtue.

[ctdonath2]

[Dr. Frank fan]

All this reminds me of the arguments that used to be made against caller id. Since I subscribed for CID, I haven't gotten too many prank calls and it is indispensable as a defense against telemarketing that admittedly using credit cards has probably stimulated.

Thanks for the personal biographical information (what this "reminds" you of, and a personal anecdote about your experience with caller ID). It's been fascinating.

However, the relationship between this information you have shared with us, and a rational argument in favor of a government-mandated National ID Card, is unclear.

These analogies you keep attempting to construct fail in the one area that is relevant: namely, a National ID Card would (if it means anything at all) be mandatory for people to carry, and failure to carry such a card would result in prosecution. If you want to keep throwing out analogies, you'd better start to make sure the analogies are appropriate in this respect.

No one is forced to get this or that credit card, or this or that telephone number. Under any realistic NID proposal, they would be forced to get a NID card after registering biometric info with the government.

It's just such a huge difference that it is bizarre that you can't see it.

I don't particularly like having my finger print on file with the DMV but since I'm not planning on being a fugitive from law or ex wife any time soon, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

(More fascinating biographical information...) I'm not losing sleep over it either, but I still disagree with it. Just because I'm not losing sleep over it doesn't make it right. And it certainly doesn't mean that one flawed policy (fingerprint collection) can rationally be used to justify another (government NID cards). It is simply not a valid argument. I suggest you stop trying to use it.

Re terrorists: NID card would seem a good first step at tracking people on visas which is sorely lacking right now.

What a disingenuous arguer you are. If it's only for tracking people on visas, then I don't need to carry one (since I am not here on a visa), so therefore the point is moot and there's nothing to discuss. Next.

But if you don't have a good id system in place, how will you stop bad guys from just getting fake ids like the 9-11 guys and enjoy the mobility of citizens?

Not all the 9-11 guys used faked IDs, you know. Some of them - maybe even the majority - used their actual identities.

One problem here is that many people seem to be convinced that what went wrong on 9/11 is that we didn't know who they were. If only we knew who they were, then somehow (miraculously) it would not have happened!!

But, this is an idiotic thing to think. You don't seriously believe this do you?

I'm not an advocate, yet, of NID cards. Just trying to grasp implications I haven't thought of because my type is so egocentric and all.

In that case, I'd say that there's one major "implication" that you need to grasp, and it gets us back to the main subject of this thread: The Constitution does not authorize the federal government to do this thing, and therefore, it should not be done. By default.

And, if you find yourself in favor of doing this thing, then you are, de facto, in favor of trashing the Constitution.

So, you can figure out where you stand on your own. At this point I'm pretty sick and tired of arguing with people who haven't fully thought it through, but still (for some reason) seem almost ready to jump on board the proposal, and slander anyone who isn't (i.e. the "if you're not a deadbeat dad you've got nothing to worry about" argument...). If you want to get a NID card because you'd find it so "convenient", then go ahead. Just think twice before trying to force me to do the same: you've got no right to do that, and I resent the neverending, solipsistic attempts by so many (even here on FR!) to try to goad me into thinking otherwise.

[Ben Chad]

I don't know you personally, but I'm willing to guess that if you caught someone peeping into your window while you're "gettin' busy" with your old lady you would kick his ass, or perhaps call the cops. What are you gonna do when you find out he is a cop? I hate to be the one to break it to ya, but being an employee of the government does not in itself make someone a paragon of virtue.

Couldn't agree more with latter statement. Peeping Tom cop? I'll blast him with my canon. Camera, that is. :-) Has this happened to you?