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To: CubicleGuy; wimpycat
I have always wondered about the "once saved, always saved" concept.

Try reading what the Word of God says. I've posted it to you. I believe my last post was 90. You failed to respond.

Now, if Billy Graham were to go out and commit murder tomorrow, the response would be, "Well, he was never really saved, anyway."

Like I said, you don't understand what the Bible says about Salvation. A simple question: Why did God save man? The answer is 3 words.

124 posted on 11/13/2001 5:34:30 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
You failed to respond.

I failed to respond in a manner that would agree with your timetable. I choose not to respond until I'm ready to respond.

The following excerpt is from "Following Christ", by Stephen E. Robinson. It explains the LDS view of salvation vs. the mainstream Christian viewpoint, and in particular the LDS viewpoint on "enduring to the end" -- there is no salvation without doing that. You're free to disagree with our viewpoint all you want, but you are not free to claim that our position is not scriptural.

Faith and Works

Among other things, I hope the first three chapters of this book have established at least the following:

1. As members of the Church in good faith who have entered the gospel covenant, we are already in the kingdom of God (though only conditionally at present) for as long as we choose to remain.

2. Enduring faithfully to the end does not just mean "coping" successfully with our problems or suffering affliction with stamina, although some have been called upon to do these things in order to endure. Certainly it has little to do with overcoming personal obstacles or achieving personal goals. Rather it means staying put in the kingdom by holding on to Christ and to his church without altering our commitment-- no matter what. Neither "enduring" nor "being faithful" means being perfect or living from our baptism until our death without sinning, for God has anticipated our weaknesses and has prepared the sacrament as a means of ongoing repentance and improvement within the covenant.

3. Some of the imperfections that so bedevil us in mortality are not of our own choosing, and we will not be held accountable for them. Imperfections of this type are built-in handicaps and limitations that simply come, because of the Fall, with mortality, and when we put off mortality we shall put off these handicaps as well.

Then Why Work?

Now if all the above are true, then why should I work anymore? After all, if we are already in the kingdom, then the purpose of doing good works cannot be to get into the kingdom! The works must fit in differently somehow, for we can't be working to earn something we already possess. But if the monumental task before me as a mortal member of the Church is not to work my way into the kingdom, then what is it? If I'm already in the kingdom, why am I working so hard? In fact, why should I work at all?

Some Christians have no good answers to those questions, since they do not possess the fullness of the gospel plan. They see salvation as a single event, in fact the only really significant event there is, and for them once you reach the kingdom the ball game is over and won. But for Latter-day Saints the answer is not that simple. We see the saving work of God in its entirety, not as a single event but as a process with a beginning and an end. The beginning of the process is coming to Christ through faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost. In doing so, and at any point in the process thereafter, we are justified, sanctified, and "saved" on the condition of endurance (Matthew 10:22), that the process continue. Thus far, LDS theology is similar to that of other Christians. But Latter-day Saints know that the end of the process is far, far grander than even this. The ultimate goal, the purpose for all God's work, is not merely to save us from death and hell, as wonderful as that is in itself. The purpose behind it all is to make us what Christ is. (Is that monumental enough for you?) To be saved is to become sons and daughters of God through the atonement of Christ-- but the ultimate goal for sons and daughters is to grow up and be what their parents are. That is the dimension only Latter-day Saints understand! I'm not working now, after my conversion, to get into the kingdom; I'm not working to be "saved"; I'm working to become what he is, and to do what he does, and to have what he has.

One could say that coming to Christ is like getting on a train headed for a specific destination. If you want to go to that place, it is critically important to get on the train. And having gotten on the train, if we stay on it, we will inevitably arrive at the destination. But even so, merely getting on the train is not the point of the journey. Arriving at our destination is the point of the journey. Coming to Christ, being saved, begins our transformation. It gets us on the train, so to speak. But our ultimate object, our goal, is to become what Christ is. And that is why we work, not to save ourselves from hell-- Christ has already done that for us. In his great condescension, God the Son became everything we are and suffered everything we suffer in order to remove every obstacle and open every door (Revelation 3:8); now he invites us to become everything he is by treading the path he has cleared. So we work to close the distance, to become more like our Father (Mosiah 5:7), to actualize the individual perfection Christ has made possible. Those who do not desire to become entirely as Christ now is will find themselves increasingly uncomfortable with the process and will eventually get off the train, some nearer and some farther from their proper destination. But nobody gets thrown off. If we stay on board-- if we endure to the end-- we have God's promise that we shall reach our destination and become all that he is and receive all that he has (Romans 8:14-19, especially 17; John 16:15; Luke 12:44; D&C 84:38).

Unfortunately that is the answer other denominations cannot use, for in their theology we and Christ are usually different species of beings-- he is divine and we are human. In their view, it is blasphemous to suggest we can become what he is. They would insist there is no process, no long-term goal, and no point to religion beyond the single event of being saved from death and hell. Once saved, they are left theologically with nowhere to go, nothing to do, and no reason to do it. Their train is stationary-- no engine, no tracks, no journey. For them getting on the train is the complete destination. No wonder the one-time event of "being saved" becomes for them the focal point for all eternity and the LDS insistence on working toward a further goal irritates them so-- they deny the existence of any further goal beyond merely being saved from death and hell. They mistakenly suppose the Latter-day Saints are working to be saved, and, unfortunately, so do some of our own people. But Christ has already done that work; now we work to become as much like him as we desire to.

Only the Latter-day Saints understand that the purpose of God's grace is to take us all the way to himself and make us-- quite literally-- what he is. Now that is grace indeed! For Latter-day Saints the focal point of this life must be coming to Christ and beginning the process, but we also look forward to that greater moment in eternity when we shall finally be like him (1 John 3:2; 2 Corinthians 3:18). And toward that glorious day as faithful sons and daughters we consecrate ourselves in the everyday unfolding of our lives, that by our labors we might close the gap between us. When we use the term coming to Christ in describing conversion, it is a figure of speech that describes our intent and our desires. But the ultimate realization of coming to Christ is in actually closing the distance between us by becoming what he is through doing what he does.

If we focus too much attention on the beginning of life in Christ, on our initial conversion and justification by faith in Christ (that is, on being saved), it is possible to obscure the object, goal, and purpose of our new life, which is gradually, both now and in the eternity before us, to become in actual fact like Christ. Too much emphasis on beginning obscures the importance of finishing. As absolutely essential as it is to be converted, if we do not then begin to imitate Christ and move gradually toward him, we do not really honor him or truly worship him, for true worship is imitation.

Similarly, if we focus too much attention on the final accomplishment of our eternal goal, on becoming someday what our Father is, it is possible to undervalue or even overlook Christ's saving work, to glorify our own efforts instead and feel we are "saving ourselves" by working toward our goal. For that reason many miss the full power and blessing of having Christ in their lives right now. Thus, I suggest it is better to think of salvation as a process with a beginning in this life and an end in eternity. The beginning is mostly up to Christ; the end is mostly up to us. That is what Nephi tells us in 2 Nephi 31:19-20: We got into the strait and narrow path by unshaken faith in the word of Christ, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Now we must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ and a perfect brightness of hope. If we "endure to the end" in this fashion, the Father promises, "Ye shall have eternal life." But we must always remember that while we are genuinely engaged in this process, while we labor between its beginning and its end, we are safe in his kingdom and in his loving arms-- saved in the classical sense (Alma 5:33, 34:16; Mormon 5:11, 6:17).


146 posted on 11/16/2001 1:10:14 PM PST by CubicleGuy
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