Notes on Nationalism

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html ^ | May, 1945 | George Orwell

[A.J.Armitage]

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[gcruse]

Will anyone actually read all this? Come on, now. Really?

[Alkhin]

He defines nationalism and patriotism well, but then he throws in that nasty little word, 'jingoism'. What the *^%^@%!#(&^)(&(_&*&%@%!!! blazes is that word??? People throw that around like its worse than Nazism, a seeming reaction to someone who boasts of the accomplishments and virtues of their country, a reaction that is one of revulsion and dismay and shock.

I hate that word!! Its thrown into every conversation of patriotism for the last 30 years...and its usually mouthed by someone of European/UK origin.

[A.J.Armitage]

I hope so. It's worth reading. There are people who read my classical threads, so I don't see why not.

I guess you could say the more serious posters will go to the trouble of reading long, but important, articles. Others might not.

[A.J.Armitage]

I think "old-fashioned British jingoism" expresses the meaning he had in mind pretty well. It's no more perjorative than the other forms he discusses.

[AndrewSshi]

Bump

[A.J.Armitage]

And a bump back to you.

[Alkhin]

Okay, but the definition of jingoism is someone who professes their patriotism loudly and excessively...and I think it is that concept that bothers me, because this definition smacks of thought policing...I mean, someone could be simply saying they love being British, and while anyone else would take that as a natural view of someone born and raised in the UK, another whose sensitivities are slighted by this mere expression would call it excessively braggadocious.

all too often I have run across non-Americans who not only bristle, but bloviate over the fact that I expressed pride in the country of my birth and gave specific reasons why...and I think jingoism is a slam towards those who have the audacity to express that pride. As someone who is proud of her own country, I would not find fault in say, someone from Madagascar expressing great love for that African island. Why would I consider it an insult to hear him brag of it?

The only time *I* would get offended is if they started putting down America without ever having experienced the country. How could I put down Madagascar without having ever been there???

On the same note, I have heard one or two British slam America...that's to be expected considering our historical relationship. But since I am well educated in both my own history and that of Great Britain, the insults and slams do not affect me...because I happen to have such a high opinion of America...and I believe I have the better deal.

I really hate the word 'jingoism.' Nothing more than New Speak for the 1984 era.

[x]

Some day I may actually read this. I don't know what to make of Orwell. He was right about Communism, but as Communism has receded his relevancy has waned. Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" seems to have been a better guide to the future than Orwell's 1984. Orwell offends both right and left -- and often goes out of his way to offend one or the other or both. The question is whether that is a strength or a weakness. Once it seemed an unquestionable strength, and perhaps it will again some day. During the post-Cold War period it looked more like posturing and an annoyance than anything else.

Orwell's distinction between patriotism and nationalism is valid. The nationalist often doesn't have much love for his actual country. But this was a distinction that Orwell had to work out for himself. For many of those who came afterwards this distinction has been just be a way of making an easy condemnation of those one disagrees with -- more armament for political argument than something to really reflect upon.

I enclose more "Notes on Nationalism" that someone posted on the Internet.

THE SEVEN RULES OF NATIONALISM.

1. If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us -- you are merely occupiers.

2. If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us -- borders must not be changed.

3. If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us -- it is the Cradle of our Nation.

4. If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us -- they must enjoy the right of self-determination.

5. If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us -- they must be protected against your oppression.

6. All the above rules apply to us but not to you.

7. Our dream of greatness is Historical Necessity, yours is Fascism.

[Restorer]

Will anyone actually read all this? Come on, now. Really?

I did. Excellent article. Amazing how the pro and anti Israeli, pro-Southern (there are few true pro-Northerners), and pro and anti Catholic groups here on FR (among others) illustrate his points perfectly. All rationality disappear when "their side" is viewed as under attack.

I have seen numerous people, who one presumes are normally decent human beings, call for the slaughter of more than a billion humans for having the nerve to be of the same faith as that claimed by the killers of 9/11.

[Goetz_von_Berlichingen]

"The interesting thing is that had the romantic rubbish which he habitually wrote about France and the French army . . ."

I just skimmed this briefly, but will print, read, and comment tomorrow (time and mid-terms permitting). I found the above passage curious. Is he confusing Chesterton with Belloc? I know the latter actually served a hitch in the French army -- artillery, if I am not mistaken.

[Restorer]

I like your Rules of Nationalism. Amazing how well they apply to most of the territorial problems in the world, notably to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

[gcruse]

Yes, ma'am.

[A.J.Armitage]

You make some good points, but I think Orwell had a slightly different meaning in mind. After all, the British still had the empire, so the contents of boasts about Britain at that time and earlier would often have had a distinctly(and unpleasantly) militaristic bent. Think Victorian neocons. I think the perjorative use of "jingoism" for all patriotism is meant to blur the distinction between regular love of country and less worthy emotions.