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Flame away. I could very likely be 50% off in my assesment. Even given I'm HALF a$$ed ... we are f---ed.
1 posted on 10/27/2001 1:21:26 PM PDT by mercy (-no)
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To: mercy
Carpet bombing civilians and staging hundred-man commando raids are unlikely to beat the Taliban. We need to commit ground forces in large numbers.
2 posted on 10/27/2001 1:30:59 PM PDT by JoeSchem
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To: mercy
There are some very good generals, including Tommy Franks, the theater commander. It's not the generals that worry me, but the politicians and the State Department professional diplomats. I tend to agree with you partly. We need a forward base in country. Mazar-e Sharif is the logical first choice, due to modern Russian built highway connecting it to Uzbekistan. There is also a huge Russian built airbase at Baghram that would make a fine forward ops base. I don't think it's coincedence that those two places are where we are concentrating our attacks now. But we will need more than a portion of the 10th Mountain Div to hold them. If we see the 101st and/or 82nd Airborne go over there you will know we are setting up for some major long-term ground ops.
4 posted on 10/27/2001 1:37:52 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: mercy; 11th_VA; Travis McGee; snopercod; M Kehoe
Bump.
5 posted on 10/27/2001 1:42:58 PM PDT by First_Salute
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To: mercy
How many of these *we've-already-lost-the-war-even-though-we're-only-weeks-into-the-campaign* loser threads are you folks going to post? Below is my rebuttal:

1. It has been reported that terrorist operatives exist in almost 60 countries;
2. The enemy is elusive and therefore difficult to fight, especially in light of our weak human intel;
3. Bush & Co. have repeatedly stated that we will target Al Queda initially and then proceed to the next;
4. Bush & Co. have also stated that behind scenes victories can't be publicized due to covert necessity;
5. This NEW type of warfare is being fought on many fronts, some not militarily;
6. Since Afganistan is land-locked we need the surrounding nations' support to execute our plans; Unfortunately, this means considering the *sensitivities* and political concerns of those nations (much to our dismay);
7. Since you nor I don't receive Top Secret cabinet level briefings, there is no way that we know what's actually going on. Neither does much of the media;
8. Be patient. We'll be at this for years...but we WILL prevail.

6 posted on 10/27/2001 1:43:05 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: mercy
I wouldn't think of flaming you. I agree that our involvement is looking so light-weight that we are sending a very bad message to the Middle East. All of that waiting around while building a "coalition" lost us precious time, in my opinion. By the way, just who IS the General running this "war?" I do miss a Schwarzkopf type giving us updates.
8 posted on 10/27/2001 1:44:37 PM PDT by EggsAckley
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To: mercy; Travis McGee; 11th_VA; snopercod; M Kehoe; harpseal; brityank; JeanS
We need massive aerial support, but instead witness the aircaft and airline industrial withering.

We need tens of thousands of personnel in the training pipeline, but have only a few hundred.

We need to make all airline personnel aware of their pending transition to military status as members of the U.S. armed forces material air transport command.

We need all recent aircraft manufacturing employees from the last two decades, to report into their last such place of employment, as a reserve pool of skilled workers.

And that's not all.

Also skipping, for now, the list of ground and sea support logistics requirements which Bush is letting languish as he continues to try and run the Clinton Administration Part III.

12 posted on 10/27/2001 1:49:53 PM PDT by First_Salute
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To: mercy
I am fed up with all the pussy footin about winning this WAR. I have been paying big bucks in tax dollars to develop tactical nuclear weapons to be used in a case such of this. We should flex our muscles and turn part of the desert into glass. Maybe then they will get the message DO NOT MESS WITH US ANYMORE!!! In my logic---Biological weapons is to the Taliban as Nuclear waepons are to the United States . Give them something to think about .. if we didn't use atomics in WW II, I probably wouldn't be writing this note. My dad was in training for the invasion of Japan. Save American lives with the technology we have developed . I also DON'T GIVE A DAMN OF ANY FREEPERS WHO DISAGREE WITH ME!! Also,Who is going to do anything about it ??? Biden ??
20 posted on 10/27/2001 1:58:40 PM PDT by Renegade
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To: mercy
Sounds like you have it all pretty much figured out. Have you called the Pentagon or the President.
34 posted on 10/27/2001 2:14:57 PM PDT by paul51
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To: mercy
Pandering to our so-called Arab Alies for their support seems to be the problem to me. This war will never get seriously mean and ugly untill either all the Arabs in the coalition are onboard 100% and unwavering or have totaly abandoned the effort. 100% is the desired option. Hence all the pussy footing.

It will eventually go one way or the other, of course thousands of needless deaths will occour between here and there. These Arabs must be forced to choose sides completely right now. Or be destroyed with the terrorists. Enough talk, one side of the fence or the other.

43 posted on 10/27/2001 2:29:48 PM PDT by america76
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To: mercy; A Navy Vet
My take... Rummy's idea that a quick toppling by spec op troops alone is faltering. He sounded very gleeful of this possibility in earlier press conferences. Part of the reason, I suspect, is that his focus on spec ops does not only reflect new realities of war, but it’s cheaper. Before the war he had been talking about shrinking the size of our regular forces to pay for the star wars pork barrel, ok, “SDI.” I saw some articles from military men questioning this shrinkage. They were castigated as being “backward.” The new Chief of Staff was emplaced expressly for his “expertise” and support for the new star wars program. Seems like he’s not the right kind of guy after all, no?

For several years before 2000 Rumsfeld was a lobbyist for the star wars industrial interests. Whether he is a true believer or not, it doesn't matter. To get to the pork, raising taxes was not an option, so the plan was to take it from other areas--regular and armoured troops, maybe some closings come into this calculation. Some here may no like this view, but I suggest you reread what Gen. Eisenhower said on the topic of the interrelationship between defense and industry.

IMHO what we need in this war that will take “years” is a large army and more spec ops. We need more intelligence investments too. Afghanistan can't be pacified by pinprick attacks from carriers hundreds of miles away and one or two thousand spec op troops in Uzbekistan. I read stories how Soviet Spec Ops basically won their Afghan War until we introduced stingers and other weapons. The implication was that since the Taleban have no such backing, we can win by spec ops. I don’t believe this wholly. Spetznaz (sp?) worked out of heavily militarized in-country areas. Namely, areas controlled by a regular army.

We need land control to win this war. Bite our lip, but I think we some sort of UN credit, in name at least, to pull this off. Create the new King Zahir govt. Have it declared the legitimate govt of Alghanistan by the UN. There are many countries that are up for this. Then we come in as "peacekeepers," like we did in Korea.

I also note that half of the Taliban army is foreign mercenaries. They are the worst fanatics. And they have no place to go. I think they will fight to the end. Some bombs won’t scare them, bombing and death is part of their mentality. They have no Afghan families, no place to live. A great defect in American propaganda is the failure to keep hammering this home: that Afghanistan is essentially under foreign occupation. I hope that some of the less-than-expected defections of the native Taleban has something to do with threats against them by the Afghan-Arabs, Chechens, etc., which I have read reports about earlier. If so, at some point many of them might go neutral, if not “defect.”

My bet is that we try to take Northern Afghanistan first. Want the spec ops to surprise them? How about jump right into the middle of Mazar and fight outward, leaving the T-ban in the countryside. Then jump into the Panshir Valley with the Brits, Maybe also the Turks, for a move on Kabul. This would involve general army forces to control territory. Calling Gen. Schwartzkopf!

As for other wars, I believe our involvement in Phillipines is starting.

48 posted on 10/27/2001 2:47:05 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: mercy
Two possibilities for you:

1)Go volunteer for the frontline;
2)Up your dose. What you are taking is not working.

49 posted on 10/27/2001 2:49:06 PM PDT by Zviadist
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To: mercy
we are f---ed.

You may be but not the rest of us

67 posted on 10/27/2001 3:14:09 PM PDT by woofie
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Newsflash: This is Not the Gulf War!!!!! We are not going to win easily or quickly, and we are NOT going to hear and see every development that takes place.

We are in the 21st day of a military response that we've been told over and over and over again ad nauseam will take a long time, that will require patience.

Maybe it's time Americans learned patience...whether we like it or not...

-penny

84 posted on 10/27/2001 3:49:35 PM PDT by Penny1
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To: mercy
You are right. The war effort is being directed and run by bleeding heart Clintonistas at State and in the Pentagon.

Sorry. But W. is not showing ANY smarts in this matter.

He should have aligned himself with the Israelis against ALL terrorists from Day One.

By now, the Palis would be history, and we could be fighting (not dropping food) in earnest in Afghanistan.

Bush NEEDS our prayers.

119 posted on 10/27/2001 5:10:58 PM PDT by BenR2
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To: mercy
The Pentagon says, that the President has signed off, on Gen. Franks plan for Afganistan. They also say that every thing is going according to plan. If so, the plan seems to neglect those military virtues of morale, momentum, and initiative. It may however retain the superior military virtues of deception and surprise. The plan certainly has us, and the rest of the world fooled, into thinking there isn't much of a plan.
147 posted on 10/27/2001 6:09:59 PM PDT by Eagle74
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To: mercy
How do separate the Taliban/al Qaeda from the civilians?

The best way, would be for them to separate themselves from civilians, and at the same time, identify themselves as the enemy. How to achieve this?

Getting them to attack us, at a fortified air field would do it. But how to get them to attack us. They would need supreme confidence in themselves, as well as their fanaticism, to commit to a frontal assault. A few victories, a feeling of momentum, support flowing in from Pakistani Taliban, US support for their self inflated image, a belief in their own propaganda, would help.

Is Gen. Franks setting them up for a crushing defeat like the defeat the Vietnamese suffered at Khe Sanh(another fortified air field).

Schwartzkopf had his left flanking attack, something you'd expect from a calvalry officer. Khe Sanh was an artillery battle, and Franks is an artillery officer.

The Taliban did spend 10 years as guerrillas, but have been fighting conventionally for the last 13 years. They are a poorly armed, poorly trained, though experienced light infantry force. How are they going to fight? Will they first try to fight conventionally? And only run into their caves, after their defeated in a conventional battle. Which should we encourage?

I hope we are setting them up for a big fall. But like you, I'm worried that Franks isn't up to the job, and his plan relies on air power to break the fanatical Taliban's will. Air power alone, has never won a war, and it won't win this one. And I say this as an Air Force Veteran, we can capture the high ground, but we are just a supporting service, for the war winning heros on the ground. Our ground pounders need to get stuck in.

"Let's Roll"

159 posted on 10/27/2001 7:16:47 PM PDT by Eagle74
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To: mercy
You don't send out patrols while sappers are running around inside your perimeter.

What we do "over there" won't matter unless we rip out the terrorist support nets on the homefront root and branch, stepping on many "moderate" toes.

171 posted on 10/27/2001 8:16:33 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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