Physics of anthrax is beyond al-Qaida, Sandia Labs expert says

Albuquerqque Tribune ^ | 10/26/01 | By Sue Major Holmes

[woofie]

A bioweapons expert from Sandia National Laboratories says the anthrax-by-mail attacks suggest a degree of sophistication beyond the al-Qaida terrorist organization.

"Unless they bought it from Iraq or something, it's not likely to be al-Qaida," Alan Zelicoff said in an interview Thursday from Washington, D.C. What makes the current attacks different from anthrax outbreaks of the past is not the anthrax itself, but rather the way it has been dispersed, said Zelicoff, who joined Sandia 12 years ago and works for its Center for National Security and Arms Control.

The anthrax in the current attacks has been treated "with materials that make it float in the air. That's no mean trick; it's a hard thing to do," Zelicoff said. "It suggests a sophisticated program with a lot of expertise, not in biology . . . but in aerosol physics."

"That's the big cataclysmic shift," he said.

Ordinarily, anthrax spores would simply fall to the ground, which has kept the bacteria from being a widespread bioterrorism threat in the past.

The current attacks suggest "roomfuls of equipment, specialties in aerosol physics and lots of testing," Zelicoff said.

"It's a hard, hard, hard thing to do and way beyond the capacity" of groups such as the al-Qaida terrorist network or militia organizations, he said.

The United States considers Osama bin Laden, head of al-Qaida, the prime suspect in the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

A story in Thursday's editions of The Washington Post quoted government sources as saying the anthrax that contaminated Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle's office might have been made in America. The story said the anthrax was treated with a chemical additive made only in the United States, the former Soviet Union and Iraq. It quoted an unnamed source as saying "the totality of the evidence in hand" suggests it was unlikely to have come from the former Soviet Union or Iraq.

However, Zelicoff - who stressed he has no information on the threats beyond what he has read in newspapers - said Iraq has the necessary sophistication, based on information released by a United Nations special commission that did weapons inspections in Iraq through much of the 1990s before Iraq closed its borders to inspections.

"They had the drying equipment; they had the milling equipment; they had the aerosol testing equipment, the expertise on staff in engineering and physics, to do this kind of work," he said.

Scientists at several medical labs around the country have spent days analyzing the bacteria from the attacks, but officials have said it's still unclear whether the mailed anthrax spores, which have caused illness in New York, Washington, Florida and New Jersey, all came from the same place.

There have been 13 cases of anthrax nationwide in the past few weeks, most with known connections to mail.

Zelicoff, whose area of expertise is early detection of large-scale dissemination of biological organisms, was in Washington on Thursday to brief Congress about monitoring for biological threats. The briefing was canceled because of the anthrax investigations.

"The truth about routine monitoring is we do not have it," Zelicoff said. "And that will be key if there's large-scale biological (threats) or someone, God forbid, uses a communicable disease such as smallpox or a new influenza strain."

America's public health system - the repository of information about diseases - is severely underused, he said. It's cumbersome for doctors to report disease information, and it's difficult for public health officials to analyze information when they're not getting enough data from doctors.

For example, one of the postal workers who died came in with flulike symptoms. But, Zelicoff said, there had not been a single case of flu reported in Washington since last winter.

"The doctors don't know that. They don't get routine information, not even to say there's not any flu, so they're not going think twice about dismissing" respiratory complaints, he said.

"It's easy to shrug someone off as having flulike symptoms. . . . But if someone is telling me there's not one single case of flu in Albuquerque, I'd think twice about a bad respiratory illness and not shrug it off as flu," said Zelicoff, a medical doctor.

New Mexico has a pilot program aimed at alerting public health experts to unusual cases or clusters of cases as soon as doctors become aware of them. The program currently operates only at University of New Mexico Hospital and at sites connected with Memorial Medical Center in Las Cruces.

The system "gives data to public health officials in Santa Fe who are the experts. . . . They're good at looking at it and saying, We've seen this before, there's no need to worry,' or That's an unusual pattern, we need to start investigating,"he said.

Such a system made easy for doctors to use and widely operated would allow the nation to spot bioterrorism diseases, since they cause severe symptoms in people who ordinarily are healthy.

"It will capture those cases - not as the result of physicians - but because of patterns of unusual disease," Zelicoff said.

[chemainus]

Their people are here.... please listen . The technology is here.....please listen. Put two and two together and do not let the feds blame it on "waco" or "okc" types. Why do you think they killed TMcV. so quickly. Sure he was guilty, but probably a willing martyr for Al Quaeda too.

[GOP_1900AD]

Why does this post trouble you so? It is curious to me, that, unlike much of the coverage recently, which seems to "suggest" more and more that the source is domestic, this post shows that both Iraq and Russia are equally, if not more suspect. If anything, this particular post counteracts the anti-right propaganda that is now spewing forth from the letter deficient entities. Who do you work for? Did you read what John LeBoutillier had to say today about the ugly anti-right direction that the current Anthrax "inquiry" has taken? Is that why this post troubles you? Again, who do you work for?

[thusevertotyrants]

McVeigh had issues with the federal governement that's for sure. It is also true that he felt America was wrong in it's conduct in the Gulf War and had sympathy for the plight of "common" Iraquis. He was misguided and disillusioned; his actions, however hideously wrong, were guided by his belief in and love of freedom. He was not a religious zealot of any kind. For him to be in cahoots with an organization like Bin Laden's, no matter their common hatred of the American Fed, doesnt fit. Now, on the other hand, are there people in this country NOT of Middle Eastern decent who may have been in on the current happenings - not at all unlikely

[chemainus]

Disagree with your premise and conclusion.

[thusevertotyrants]

Ok - curious as to why. Gimme a scenario

[chemainus]

Evidence to the contrary that was suppressed by your ( Reno's ) FBI ... the Bush admin didn't seem to want to re-open the can of worms at first so it was easier to just inject TMV ( ok with me, just a waste of a good witness about Islamic subversion here) .

[thusevertotyrants]

Be more specific - what evidence?

[aristeides]

If you're going to do a field trial, why do it in a way that puts your opponent on his guard? Why not do it inconspicuously, under the radar screen?

[aristeides]

that brings us back to Iraq or the Russian black market.

But anthrax from the Russian black market would not be sensitive to antibiotics, as this anthrax is. That leaves Iraq.

[aristeides]

FYI.

[woofie]

bump

[woofie]

No, it couldn't be that three or four talented microbiologists, biochemical engineers, and other former academics entranced by Osama could have possibly "thought outside the box" and came up with a break-through. Totally impossible. I just love the doctrinaire tone of some PhDs. "Well, we have lots of degrees and can barely do the job, therefore, someone else without our credentials couldn't possibly do it." This is the kind of thinking we heard from US military planners before the Japanese Naval aviators suprised them with the Long Lance torpedo at Pearl Harbor. (the gospel to that point was that a torpedo couldn't operate well in such shallow waters, if I understand correctly)

All he is saying is that it would take a while to put this together in other words it is probably state sponsored

[woofie]

I look forward to your apology ...preferably public

[LarryLied]

"Unless they hijacked the planes or something, it's not likely to be al-Qaida," Alan Zelicoff said. He went on to explain that the terrorists in Afghanistan certainly had no production facilities capable of manufacturing large, twin-engine passenger jets.

And your parody is what is so great about FR. BS gets knocked down fast. With humor.

[woofie]

Sometimes the intelligence level here amazes me ...This is not BS ....You need a reading comprehension course...Try this thought" gee maybe there are other terrorists out there or maybe Al Queda is working with Iraq"

[FR_addict]

For example:

McVeigh's Ghost - Top Pentagon Officials Say Iraq Involved in OKC Bombing

Pentagon Report: Destruction in OKC caused by 5 Seperate Bombs

Firm Ran Security at OK Bomb Site - Part 6

[VOA]

All he is saying is that it would take a while to put this together in other words
it is probably state sponsored

I agree that the odds are in favor of it being state-sponsored.
But it's just interesting to never hear any of the experts say "there's always the
outside chance that some small group or lone genius has made a quantum breakthrough".
I think too many of these brain-trust experts haven't listened to Tommy Thompson's
Sixty Minutes interview and figured that they better hedge their bets when
rendering opinions.

I guess my viewpoint is that I've worked in plant biology and plant pathology.
I can't help but think that three or four former radical Muslims who may have been
grad. students in labs in Europe, Japan or the USA might have compared notes, tweeked
a few processes...and are now cranking the stuff out themselves in a garage someplace.
To me, the variability in the quality of the anthrax material says "somebody is
working day and night...sometimes getting the process right, but missing it sometimes".

I know the odds are small...but not so far beyond the pale as to be dismissed out of hand.

[thusevertotyrants]

Interesting stuff - McVeigh akin to Oswald? -- Yaneverknow, it may be so -- BUT The real question becomes - when the source is the government, what do you believe and what dont you believe - well, my answer would be to go to the info thats available outside government sources If you do this, with McVeigh - the story makes sense. By that I mean (and I hate to have to explain myself this carefully, but I have noticed that some of the more self-righteous posters in this forum love to twist people's words) that while there is no justifying WHAT McVeigh did, that there is a logical thread that can be followed as to how that individual came to do what he did. Now, the end result is not palatable - because what you end up with is that the monster could be the guy next door, and thats TERRIFYING. Such a plausible (tho ideologically flawed) sequence of events could never quite be presented in the case of Oswald Looking at it another way - in the end what was so terrifying about Oklahoma City and McVeigh anyway? Was it a few dead federal agents? Was it the mangled facade of a building? NO! It was the realization that the guy that did it could have been your next door neighbor. It's oh so much better when the enemy isnt one of your own - when he can be identified by ethnic or cultural differences. If the government can put together a story whereby McVeigh becomes an agent of those evil Ayrab - then they have accomplished some work towards the goal of easing the pain and terror of the masses (and ever closer to gaining their unquestioning trust and loyalty)

[Capt. Tom]

It's my understanding that it's also beyond Al-Queda's ability to build Boeing 757s too.

I know what you mean. It is beyond my capabilities to build a Ford 150 truck ;but I own one, and know how to drive it. -Tom

[Patria One]

Do you think woofie invented the news article?