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To: JohnnyM; OLD REGGIE; Havoc; JHavard; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
OK, let's fasten our safety belts and place our seat backs and tray tables in their full upright and locked positions. We're going to take a little thought experiment.

Let us imagine a Christian, let's call him Mr. C. Mr C has been reading Scripture and been feeling the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit leads Mr C to a fuller understanding of Scripture and he comes to understand a new truth, let us call it Proposition P.

Convinced by his reading of Scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and sure of the ultimate authority of Scripture, Mr C takes his Prop P to his Church. The leaders of the Church, which does not hold Prop P to be true, in fact holds it false, consider Mr C's proposal. They study Scripture and the mind of the Church and determine that MR C is mistaken. They attempt to explain from Scriptural context and from the general understanding of the Church why Prop P is wrong.

Mr C takes this counsel and returns to his room. He prays for guidance from the Holy Spirit and considers everything his Church leaders told him. After further study he is convinced that he is right and sadly, his Church is wrong.

Mr C goes to some of his friends, also Christians, and tells them of his Prop P. His friends appeal to him from Scripture and the common Christian understanding. Mr C can accept their arguments, but is convinced that the outlook given to him by the Holy Spirit overrides them.

Mr C returns to his room and again prays for inspiration from the Holy Spirit and begins to study again. He considers the arguments made by his friends, but can not shake the idea that this new Truth revealed to him by the Holy Spirit is True indeed.

So Mr C sadly has to leave his present Church and take his new Truth to the world, convinced that he must win hearts and minds to this newly understood Proposition.

**************************************************

OK, friends and neighbors. Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action? Mr C didn't just blindly believe the first thing he thought, he sought out counsel from Church and Christians. He entertained other ideas. But at the end of the day he was compelled to believe what Scripture said. To him. Through his inspired reading and study.

SD

2,671 posted on 10/25/2001 7:10:04 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
would Mr.C be Martin Luther???

JM
2,675 posted on 10/25/2001 7:19:57 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: SoothingDave
OK, friends and neighbors. Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action? Mr C didn't just blindly believe the first thing he thought, he sought out counsel from Church and Christians. He entertained other ideas. But at the end of the day he was compelled to believe what Scripture said. To him. Through his inspired reading and study.

No this isn't a fair story of Sola Scriptura. It is a fair story of what you want to force on everyone else. It is a fair story of your bullheadedness. It is a fair story of what Mr. C thought and did. I'm afraid Mr. C is on his own.

This is a "fair" description of Sola Scriptura:

"Actually, calling it "Sola Scriptura" is a bit of a misnomer, because it is not a doctrine which teaches that we believe that there are not other authorities, nor that they have no value or place. Rather, it means that other authorities must be subordinate to the Word of God. The phrase "Sola scriptura" implies several things. First, that the Scriptures are a direct revelation from God, and as such, are His Authoritative Word. It is also a term which illustrates that the scriptures are all that is necessary for Church faith and practice today. Not only that the scriptures are sufficient, but that they also are the ultimate and final court of appeal on all doctrinal matters. Because however good and faithful a Church leader may be in giving his guidance, all the fathers, teachers, popes, and councils, are still fallible. The only infallible "source" for truth is the scriptures. Besides God Himself, Only His Words (the Scriptures alone), are infallible."

By Tony Warren
The Mountain Retreat!
------------------------------------------------------------

I, for one, am through discussing Sola Scriptura with you!

Next subject:

I will invent a fanciful definition of "Magisterium" and hold you to my definition. Fair?
2,730 posted on 10/25/2001 8:17:58 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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To: SoothingDave
OK, friends and neighbors. Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action? Mr C didn't just blindly believe the first thing he thought, he sought out counsel from Church and Christians. He entertained other ideas. But at the end of the day he was compelled to believe what Scripture said. To him. Through his inspired reading and study.


SD, I have read your scenario, and put my self in the place of Mr. C, and I did manage to relate to him, except in the conclusions.

I have discovered many truths, which at the time I felt blessed that a commoner like my self could be blessed to find or discover something that men who were giants of faith and much Holier then myself found years ago.

To me, this wasn't a disappointment that others were way ahead of me, but a compliment that I was on the same track as they.

When I was 16, and got my first 1940,-6 cyl Chevy, my step dad showed me how to adjust the overhead valves on it, and of course the engine had to be running and warm to do so.

So there I was, trying to hold a 9/16 box wrench on this moving target, while trying to engage a standard screwdriver into another moving target at the same time.

My inventive mind went to work, and soon I had made a combination wrench/screwdriver, that when you slid the box end of the wrench down over the moving 9/16 lock nut, the screwdriver was mounted on a bracket to the wrench, and it came down over the screwdriver notch at the same time, and easily lined up with the screw, and worked perfectly.

I was so excited with $$$$$ in front of me as I ran to tell Dad what I had, I brought him out to the car, and said watch this, and I gave him a demo of my perfect invention.

Just as I was readying my self to ask him if he wanted in on the ground floor of this amazing discovery, he said.

"Yeh, we used those in the Army"

Well, months later when I decided I had to get out of bed, and make a life again for my self............ Lol,

The point being, I took this as a compliment, because even if it had already been invented by someone else, I felt this connected me to other inventors who were just like me, possibly the first few don't work out, but if you have faith in your gift of inventiveness, it will pay off some day, and for me it was 30 years and 4 patents later when I finally invented a tool that I manufactured and sold nationwide for over 11 years, and was blessed to have my children as a part of the business through their young years.

Now what about Mr.C?....This truth he discovered may have truly been inspirational. but if he had looked outside of his little world, he would have found someone else had came up with the same idea, and from that, he could have told if the world had beat a path to the door of this other person, or if it passed in the night.

If he had loved his Church, he should have held onto his new truth, and worked around it with their present doctrine, and if he wasn't content with that, then if he thought it was that important, he should have done what he was led to do.

The truth he had may have been very important to him, and even to others, so if it made them draw closer to God, and gave them peace of mind to follow this new idea, then so what, does God look to see what building we are in when we pray to him, or does he ask what the name of our orginization is?

I think not, and to God who hears billions of prayers coming to him every day, I doubt seriously if he considers these prayers from these people as confusion or chaotic, they are simply more of his people calling out to him in one voice.

2,798 posted on 10/25/2001 10:38:44 AM PDT by JHavard
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To: SoothingDave
Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action?

It's reasonably fair. The points I would make about it are the following.

1) This guy seems to be incredibly individualistic. Where are his mentors, his friends, his Sunday School teacher, his parents, etc... Obviously, to some Proddies this individualism is an attraction of the "system." But, I would think most Proddies would listen to their church's counsel (in the context of relationships w/ them) and advice on doctrinal matters.

2) I have never come across a person who came up with a doctrinal idea in the manner you proposed. I have had countless experiences with people who hear a message on the radio, or see a preacher on TV, or get a tract or a book from a friend and then suddenly "see the truth in Scripture." I don't think this is a problem inherent in Sola Scriptura, but a problem inherent in the whole Christian media scene. Books and tapes are sold and reputations made on doctrinal "innovations." I can't count the number of times that I've discussed doctrinal issues with people and they counter my scriptural exegesis with, "But Kenneth Copeland-Hagen [insert your least favorite prophet of Tulsa/Baal here] says...." So I don't think that the occurences of something like that happening are very high.

3) I don't know how much time people who come up with new doctrines spend in prayer. But I have grave and deep-seated suspicions. If they really spend that much time in prayer, you think God would actually reveal the truth to them. And I don't think there's a lot of "new truths" out there to be revealed (anymore than there are new Traditions to be developed).

Your scenario has undoubtedly occurred from time to time, but I would think the actual number of times it has occurred is relatively low. Again, I can't stress #2 enough. It's usually not a case of the person reading Scripture and finding something through the Spirit. It's usually a case of hearing something or reading something that "tickles their fancy." So, it's not a case of them not trusting authority, but of them trusting the wrong authority, namely, media-driven professional Christians.

2,949 posted on 10/26/2001 5:48:51 AM PDT by the808bass
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