Little faith? I have no faith in man, and I have no problem admitting that.
Grilling you for not responding? You didn't so much as acknowledged it. 75% 0f your rebuttal to me was hinged on your belief that Joseph had children to another wife prior to Mary, and I answered to that belief.
You said nothing about considering my post, but on the post concerning the "firstborn", and you ended your last post to me #24347 by saying, that your "belief comes from the Orthodox tradition and not from scripture."
From that I had no way of knowing if that meant the subject was closed or what, so I waited since yesterday, and that's why I mentioned it.
You said you were going to get help from someone at your church on the subject of "firstborn" not the subject of "Mary Ever Virgin".
As far as my comments on James, 1 Cor 15:7, where Paul said, "After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles."
If you will take the time to read what I said, here are my words.
Jesus put his money where his mouth was. He had told them that a spiritual brother was even more of a true brother then a blood brother, such as James, who wasn’t a believer at that time, but it looks as though that may have changed shortly afterwards since the apostle Paul said that Christ saw James alone 1 Cor 15:7, and this was quite possibly when James gave his life to his Lord.
”It looks as though.”…. Now does that sound like a dogmatic statement of revealed truth? I personally would not stake my life on any speculation I make, or on what I think the Bible says or what it doesn’t say, even though I do give God thanks for knowledge he does give me, that’s not coming from an organized church, and that certainly was one of them, but it was scripture that tied it all to Jesus and his brothers.
You didn’t say why Christ made a separate visit to see James though, why do you think he did?
The reason I take so long on a post, is because I have no Church Doctrine to turn to, or booklets on the subject, and I research every bit of what I write by my self, and if it weren’t for “Spell Check” you’d accuse me of speaking in tongues to hide my real beliefs. Lol (^g^) JH
From that I had no way of knowing if that meant the subject was closed or what, so I waited since yesterday, and that's why I mentioned it.
Last reply until tonight, as I'm working on a deadline. I apologize again that you took offense at my lack of response. The 2nd sentence of my last long post to you reads:
As with your great response on the question of "firstborn," I'm going to devote some time to prayer and study and speaking with some of my Orthodox mentors, and then respond more. But I'll give a few thoughts now.
I don't believe that you should have assumed from this that I was ducking answering your follow up questions. This is why I attempted to joke with you earlier about not having "faith" in my getting back to you. Please tell me honestly if you are interested in my response. If not, I won't bother. If you are genuinely interested, I will.
Apologies again. Meant as a joke, and in the "street" sense of the word. Considering this is a religious discussion, I will try to be more careful about how I use the word "faith." Also, I’m going to diligently try to answer every question you’ve put to me, but if I miss one let me know.
You said you were going to get help from someone at your church on the subject of "firstborn" not the subject of "Mary Ever Virgin".
I’ve done some of my own research, and also put the question to my priest. Part of his answer to me via email reads as follows:
“The problem with Biblical interpretation is that we are limited by our humanity. We speak and think in human terms and our tendency is to attempt to portray the Divine in these terms. Don’t try to limit Jesus to a finite place and time. While it is true that He was born in a finite place and time, we must always think of Him in terms of His Infinity. "O only-begotten Son and Word of God who art immortal" as the Troparion of the Second Antiphon reminds us. It also reminds us "who for our salvation willed to be incarnate of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary." It is not appropriate to merely speak about Jesus was born on such and such a date and Mary had kids after Him. The irony of the particular argument that you sent to me is that within the Tradition of our Church, it is believed that Joseph may have had children from a previous marriage (James, the brother of the Lord). Keeping that in mind, they still refer to Jesus as "firstborn." Why? Because He is the first in all things, the first in all creation, "the firstfruits of them that are asleep." (1 Cor. 15:20-23) If we can refer to Him as the "firstfruits of them that are asleep (i.e., dead), does that mean that He is the first person to have ever died? No. The first to rise from the dead? No (the son of the widow of Nain, Lazarus, etc.) We need to be very careful in adhering to a strict literal interpretation of isolated Biblical quotes. I have provided a link below which list "first-born" in the New Testament. If we were to take each of them literally, it would wreak havoc with our understanding of basic Christian doctrine.”
I know that this doesn’t address precisely the discussion we’re having, but I find it interesting. I want to explore this idea a little more, but I don’t want to get slammed for posting 3 pages again, so I’m going to do that in another post.
As an aside, what my priest included was a link to crosswalk.com’s online RSV bible study tool, listing each occurance of the word “first-born” in the NT. I mention this because I want to reinforce the idea that the Orthodox do turn first to Scripture to form their thinking. They just don’t stop there.
”It looks as though.”…. Now does that sound like a dogmatic statement of revealed truth?
No. And my apologies if I implied that it was. I realized that you were putting forth a theory. My intention was to point out that this interpretation is thus no more binding than an interpretation put forth by Orthodox tradition.
You didn’t say why Christ made a separate visit to see James though, why do you think he did?
I don’t know. Since I don’t know, I could form theories if I chose. My preference would be instead to turn to the Patristic teachings of the Church to see what others have thought first. There are different versions of “The Life of St. James” in the hagiographic tradition. You’ve roused my curiosity, so I may look in to it more.
The reason I take so long on a post
Take as long as you need. Any reference to the amount of time it took you to respond was meant as a joke. I was sincere when I thanked you for remembering our conversation from several weeks ago from another thread, and am still amazed that you went to the trouble to remember and respond. As I’ve said once already, for this reason I consider you a man (woman?) of honor.