Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
You are having trouble pinning them down aren't you? Isn't it amazing with all that material, it is hard to get an answer out of them?
Here is a source of information, and ironically enough it comes from a non-catholic website that had to put the inf. together. These are the "dogmas" which relate to salvation according to the RC church. Scroll to the bottom of the list for purgatory. I hope this helps.
Huh? I thought dignan was the one posting that.
Yeah, but you were thinking it.
The horror!
And just for PNAMBC,
Pray for John Paul II
Ho hum. Boring game. Think I'll watch Hannity and Colmes. :-)
Finally, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, the Immaculate Virgin was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory upon the completion of her earthly sojourn...For, taken up into heaven, she did not lay aside this saving role, but by her manifold acts of intercession continues to win for us gifts of eternal salvation...Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix...As the most holy Mother of God she was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men. Hence the Church appropriately honors her with special reverence...In all perils and needs, the faithful have fled prayerfully to her protection (The Documents of Vatican II (Chicago: Follett, 1966), Walter M. Abbott, S.J., General Editor, pp. 16, 418, 535, 140-141, 542, 154., pp. 90-91, 94).
Unbelievable and shocking, but true RC dogma.
Big Mack and Becky: What do you think of this?
JH
This is the belief you promote when you talk of the need of cleansing in Purgatory which is purely un-scriptural,
SD
I'm afraid not. I don't believe nor does the Catholic Church teach that our sins somehow stick to our bodies and that our souls are pure and clean. Our souls get dirty through sin and require cleansing to be worthy to stand in God's Presence. I don't know why you got the idea that I said Purgatory means that the body is evil, because I didn't.
JH
What does the Catholic Church teach is sin?
From Catholic Encyclopedia
One sin may be the cause of another inasmuch as one sin may be ordained to another as an end. The seven capital sins, so called, may be considered as the source from which other sins proceed. They are sinful propensities which reveal themselves in particular sinful acts. Original sin by reason of its dire effects is the cause and source of sin in so far as by reason of it our natures are left wounded and inclined to evil. Ignorance, infirmity, malice, and concupiscence are the consequences of original sin.
I see no sin listed here that isn’t covered under typical human, physical sin. Of course Satan sinned and he was not human, and the angles sinned when they followed him, but his sin’s were Lust for more power and recognition, selfishness, an over inflated ego, and his need to do just the opposite of how God wanted things done just to show him he could make it work, and all of them are the same as we human’s fight all the time, so man was made of the earth, to even experience the same sins as Satan.
JH
please read the passages in my last post, it makes it clear that when we are quickened, the sins are no longer present.
1 Cor 15:35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
V-15 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
SD OK. So the body has to die. How does this make me be arguing that the body is "evil" and the soul is "good" but trapped in the evil body?
JH
Where did this come from, I never said that? You are the one who used the term “Evil”, not me.
1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
V-43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
V-44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
SD
OK. So the corrupt physical body is buried and raised up will be a new, spiritual, incorruptible body. Fine. now what part of that has me arguing that the body is "evil" and the soul is "good" but trapped in the evil body?
JH
What part of that…….. I have no idea, it didn’t come from me.
1Cor 13:3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
SD
OK. So valuing the body over doing good deeds or having love is not good. I agree.
Now which part of this is arguing, and which part of this is me arguing that the body is all bad and that the pure soul is trapped in this evil body?
Which part is me saying that Purgatory is for the human body?
JH
Nowhere did I say the body is all bad and evil, and the soul is pure but it is trapped in this human body.
I insinuated that all bad is represented in our body, but not all in our body is bad.
JH
Why do you think God gave us a human body with all the pulls and needs, it was to deal with the same problems that he had to deal with in Satan, what other reason could there be?
SD
I don't have any idea what this means.
JH
Well, let me ask you this, do you think that the whole plan of salvation,.. man sins, …Christ died to forgive those sins, …man accepts his sacrifice,… man is forgiven,… man with the help of the Holy Spirit struggles against sin, …man dies,…man is quickened into a perfect spirit being, we are now perfect spirit beings, and from our experiences as a human fighting against sin, and seeing the effects it causes, we don't make the same mistake that Satan made, we never questions God because we knows from experience that God’s way works, ..and Satan’s way teaches us to live and function in sin which promotes more sin and suffering.
JH
If this is considered gnostic, then perhaps there are other things we can learn from them.
SD
Yes, learn how marriage and having children is bad and committing suicide is good. I imagine killing children before they are even born is a great liberation of the pure soul from the evil snare of the human body!
Of course I was being factious, but I’ll bet there are some of your beliefs that are the same as theirs were, and I’m sure you won’t throw them out because of that.
JH.……PS, all the SD's and JH's were put in for my benefit, since it was so confusing.
I know the Bible says Mary had other children (besides Jesus), but I really didn't know you were that old!
Where do you get the info about Ignatius's Epistles ? Who says which are real and which are frauds ? Is there a website containing this critique ?
Here is a quote from Johannes Quasten's 4 volume set, Patrology. It is found in volume 1, pages 73-74:
Authenticity of the EpistlesThe authenticity of the Epistles was for a long time questioned by Protestants. On their view, it would be unlikely to find at the time Trajan the monarchical episcopate and so clear and organization of the hierarchy into bishop, presbyter and deacon. They suspected the Letters of Ignatius of being a forgery, made with the very purpose of creating the hierarchical organization. But such a falsification is incredible. After the brilliant defense of their authenticity by J. B. Lightfoot, A. v. Harnack, Th. Zahn and F. x. Funk they are generally accepted as genuine today. Both the external and the internal evidence are in their favor. Testimony is extant which reaches back to the time of their composition. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, and one of the addressees, writes in his Epistle to the Philippians, which was penned soon after Ignatius' death: 'The Epistles of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others which we had by us, we send you as requested. They are enclosed herewith. You will be able to benefit greatly from them. For they are conducive to faith and patience and to every kind of edification pertaining to our Lord'(13,2). This description fits the letters exactly. Both Origen and Irenaeus refer to the Epistles, and Eusebius specifically names all seven in their traditional order, recording them as integral parts of a compact collection (Euseb., Hist. eccles., 3, 36, 4ff)
Text Tradition of the Epistles
The letters are preserved in three recensions:
1. The short recension
This is the original recension which exists in Greek only and is preserved in the Codex Mediceus Laurentianus 57,7; the recension dates back to the second century. The Epistle to the Romans, however, is missing; but its text was found in the tenth-century Codex Paris Graec. No 1457.
2. The long recension
In the fourth century the original collection was tampered with and interpolated. This recension was executed by a contemporary of the compiler of the Apostolic Constitutions, a person closely associated with the Apollinarists. He added six spurious letters to the seven authentic Epistles. This longer recension is extant in numerous Greek and Latin manuscripts.
The longer recension became known first. It was printed in Latin in 1489 and in Greek in 1557. The original short recension of the Epistles to the Ephesians, to the Christian communities of Magnesia, Tralles, Philadelphia, and Smyrna and to Bishop Polycarp was published in 1646 and that of the Letter to the Romans in 1689. Since then the conviction has prevailed that the long recension is spurious.3. The Syriac Abridgment
In 1845, W. Cureton published a Syriac text of a collection of the Epistles to the Ephesians, to the Romans, and to Polycarp. The editor considered these abbreviated recensions as genuine. Lightfoot and others, however, proved them to be only an abridgment of a Syriac version of the short recension.
This was written in 1950. Admittedly, Quasten was a Catholic. If anyone can produce scholarship after 1950 which contradicts Quasten's account, then they should bring it forward. Otherwise, in my mind, this issue conclusively lands in favor of the short recension.
Also, I know of no Protestant apologist who spends time using the Fathers to bolster their arguments that doesn't accept the short recension of Ignatius' seven Epistles as genuine. I wonder why?
Pray for the Servant of the Servants of God
If the Lord is for me, then who can be against me? I'm for God's word. You're for whatever supports your beliefs. I'll reject anything that is unscriptural, unholy, disobedient, and that I would not do if I were standing before God Himself. If you really care about God, you generally stay away from things that would lead you away from Him. I try to stay away from anything that even hints of leading me away from Him. With you guys, it's always doctrine. I'm stuck on God's word. And I'll live by God's word rather than man's doctrines because God's word will judge me in the end. Ya'll don't like addressing that; but, it's something you can count on - and not the first one of your philosophies or dogmas will help you at that time. I'll profess the scripture that by faith in Jesus we are saved. I'll also profess scripture in all other things. I'm safely at home in scripture. The same scripture that tells us your purgatory is a lie of the devil. The same scripture that tells us talking to dead people is a sin that you'd have been stoned to death for in OT times.. etc.. I know the Lord's word. You might try knowing it and living it instead of Philosophy. It'll get you further. And it's what Jesus was trying to tell us all along. Follow Him!
The Mystery of the Virgin Mary by[Orthodox] Archbishop Stylianos of Australia
The word "mystery" is of Greek derivation, and dates from pre-Christian times. For the ancient Greeks, "mysteries" were those religious rites which involved some process of "initiation", that is to say an introduction into and familiarisation with some "mystical" and hidden truths. The most well known of these rites were the "Eleusinian". From the verb 'muw' (initiate) - which means "I half close my eyes" so that I can delve more deeply and ponder by limiting the external light which does not allow me to concentrate within - are derived the words "mystery", "mystical", "mystic", "mystagogy" etc, which all refer to the many-faceted and forever unsearchable reality of depth, in contrast to the flat presence of the surface. Christianity borrowed the word "mystery" from here, thereby giving it an even deeper and more sacred meaning. The "mysteries" of the idolaters are as far removed from the "mysteries" of the Church as the truths of the world are from the truths of God.
The word "sacrament" is often used for mystery in modern Church terminology in order to express the visible "action" in the context of worship with which invisible grace is transmitted to the faithful. Thus we mainly speak of the seven mysteries or Sacraments of the Church without this of course signifying that the salvific grace of God is necessarily or exclusively bound by those concrete "actions".
There is however a more general meaning of the term "mystery" which expresses the undefined total of known and unknown truths which regulate the position and the relationships of the individual person with God and with fellow human beings, within the entire plan of Divine Economy. For, as it has been correctly stated, "no man is an island".
Within this broader and more general meaning, every human person possesses his or her own mystery, just like unique fingerprints, regardless of the external appearance of that person's life. This mystery, while no doubt unknown to others, remains largely unknown even to the very person concerned.
Yet when the mystery of the individual person has a decisive significance for the salvation of others - and this is mainly true in the case of the Saints - then the personal mystery no longer remains a secret with seven seals. For, as the late Father Paisios had said, "the Saint hides himself, but the Grace of God reveals him". It "reveals" him not of course for the "praise of people", but for the salvation of many.
Thus, the confession and gratitude of those who benefit becomes, without even trying, a revelation and an amazing commentary on the hidden aspects of one's personal mystery.
If this follows in terms of "decoding" the unseen aspect of the mystery of each "chosen vessel" and instrument of divine grace in this world, then it is only natural that this should occur more profoundly in the incomparable "mystery" of the Virgin Mary.
The period of compunction in the first fifteen days of August, with traditional fasting and daily Supplication services, gives us again this year an opportunity to recall a few of the many benefactions of the Mother of God towards the whole human race. These truths however surpass logic, which is why we will appeal to the conscience of the faithful, rather than their logic. And we will recall several of the unique goods which the Virgin Mary, being "full of grace", has secured for us, and which she continues to maintain in our midst through her ceaseless "intercessions".
The leading theologian of the 14h century. St Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessaloniki, in admiring the unsearchable "mystery" which the Virgin Mary silently crystallised at the centre of the Divine Economy, even goes as far as to say that Mary the Mother of God is "the cause of all those who have gone before her, and the guardian of all those who come after her". No matter how strange this description may seem for a creature of God -even if this is the Virgin Mary- we shall see below that this is not an enthusiastic exaggeration of love, nor a rhetorical device which is called "poetic licence". On the contrary, this statement is a most precise and profound theological definition, worthy of the great Teacher of Orthodoxy.
If theosis i.e. deification of the human person was the '"pre-eternal will" of God, which looked towards the Incarnation, it is clear that the "giving" of human nature by the Virgin Mary to the Son and Word of God was the highest goal of the entire Creation. For this reason "all that was before her" are justifiably considered as being directed towards the Virgin Mary, as the "final cause". And precisely because she has such a crucial relationship with all who went before her, she is then the protector "of all who came after her". In this way, the Mother of God is presented as the "key" of all Creation.
Having the supreme and central soteriological event of incarnation as a foundation, we can easily verify various other corresponding features of the Virgin Mary, which give a more detailed account of her incomparable personal mystery and grandeur.
It was precisely this most central position and relationship of the Virgin Mary with the entire plan of the Divine Economy which allowed the Church Fathers to form and develop not only a typological, but also a substantial parallel between the Virgin Mary and the Church in general. The central axis of this parallel is the fact that both are simultaneously Mother and Virgin, having maternity and virginity absolutely, since both are brought about "by the Holy Spirit". The almost complete identification of the mystery of the Virgin Mary with the mystery of the entire Church is perfectly and epigrammatically expressed even in the Psalmic verse "glorious things are spoken of You, O city of God" (Ps 87:3). It is the unique case in all of Creation when one single person "represents" the entire city of God, that is to say the multitude of "people being deified". This image alone would be sufficient to declare for all time the breadth and depth of the mystery of the Virgin Mary, which she herself had confessed with contrition and appreciation when foretelling doxologically: "from now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48).
The fact that the gestation and incarnation of God the Word from the pure Mother of God was the climax and unique service towards humanity and the entire Creation, did not hinder St Maximos the Confessor from teaching that the unique example of the Virgin Mary must, in some sense, have a continuation and reflection in the life of each of the faithful. Every faithful person must "bring forth" the Word of God in his life and become, in a personal way, a kind of Bearer of God (Theotokos). This of course does not signify a repetition of the "hypostatic union", which would be an unacceptable heresy and blasphemy. However, what is meant here is of course a bringing forth of the Word of God in a moral sense in each person through the divine grace which is afforded by the communion of the Holy Spirit, with the sacramental life of the Church.
At any rate, we shall approach the mystery of the Virgin Mary in an even better manner by remembering three specific aspects of her historical life, all of which express three fundamental features of her holy person:
1) utter humility and obedience 2) evervirginity 3) the divine Assumption with the Dormition
At first glance, one may tend to believe that the first of the three features above was in fact the cause from which the other two blossomed, as a kind of reward on the part of God. Yet a more careful examination will reveal that all three of these are equivalent or are, in other words, three different perspectives on the same reality with which God endowed her who is "full of grace".
The utter humility and obedience of the Virgin Mary means that she left herself totally in the hands of God. Upon this precise point the "evervirginity" of the Mother of God is founded and sealed for all time, which is also why we should not restrict this only to her bodily integrity, but rather to her entire conscience and person, which never permitted the slightest divergence (or wandering) from the divine will.
And when the rational creature of God, which is His icon, freely chooses utter humility, thereby maintaining the continual virginity with regard to the divine will, then it is clear that such a person has by the grace of God reached incorruptibility, which the Assumption infers.
Only in this way can the tomb be no longer a point of bankruptcy and a grievous end to a tormented life but, on the contrary, the beginning and prelude to the "eighth day", something which allows us to chant within the formal worship of the Church:
"O marvellous wonder! The source of life is laid in the tomb, and the tomb itself becomes a ladder to heaven..."
For this very reason the early Church considered the "Birthday" not to be one's birth into the world, with all of the uncertainties that would follow, but rather the day of one's falling asleep in the Lord, which definitely sealed not only earthly time, but also the final physiognomy of that person in the Kingdom of God. This is also why the Orthodox, when keeping their Tradition, celebrate namedays rather than birthdays. from Voice of Orthodoxy, vol 18, No. 8 published by the Archdiocese of Australia
Not much. Which is the same as the amount of space God used to tell us about Mary. This tells me much more about her true role than your fanciful, fictional dogmas and mysteries. She was an honest, humble vessal for God to use. It is amazing that you think her so unique in this. Her role was unique, her character was not. It's less than what God expects from all of us. You should not give her credit for God's marvelous work and plan, but doing so shows your true character. And that is not a good thing IMO.
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