The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[OLD REGGIE]

Irrelevant. I'm going by what the Catholic Church teaches and what the other denominations teach. I'm not going to speculate on the percentages in sinners in each denomination.

Of course, what the people in the Church do is of no matter. It is what is written in the (generally unobserved) Catechism that counts.

It would be nice if you backed up your assertions of what "other denominations teach" with their Creed (or any approved teaching document) so we can see where they teach birth control and/or abortion. After all, it is not what the people in these denominations do, it is what their Churches teach. Right?

[al_c]

Here's an analogy. When you get mad at your wife (assuming your married) or you do something that dissappoints your wife, does that mean you don't love her???

Married with one little girl (haven't you seen the pictures of my little Hannah posted a few times on these threads? I could post more! ;o) and another due in February.

Good analogy. But (that word again ... sheesh) disappointing God is a lot different than turning our backs on God. A sin is a willful disobedience to God, is it not? Likewise, if a spouse is showing willful disobedience (such as an affair or something), is a denial of love.

We may disappoint God by (for example) not praying much, not going out of our way for the needy, etc., but we downright deny Him by committing sin against Him. We then run the risk of being told "I do not know you" when our judgment day comes.

[Battle Hymn of the Republic]

great quote!

[SoothingDave]

I think that would be true of most Protestant "councils" as well. I think most Proddie's conventions would be made up of ministers and probably some lay representatives of the church, hardly every Tom, Dick and layman.

That's probably true. I know there are congregational types who go whole hog on democracy, but let's ignore that. I think the point to the original post was that Catholics do not pick their leaders or pastors. We don't vote to see who is going to be Bishop for this "term." We don't get together and decide who we are going to hire as pastor. And like judges aren't elected to "insulate" them from political pressure, so it is in the Catholic Church. You get the pastor the Bishop decides to give you. You get the Bishop the Pope decides to give you.

Electing the Pope is the obvious counterexample, but that election really in no way is effected by the average layman.

SD

[JohnnyM]

"Does my story sound like a reasonable application of Sola Scriptura?"

No. Because you are assuming that both the Church and Mr.C are being guided by the Holy Spirit, and obviously that is not the case here. Is Mr.C attending the Branch Dividians led by David Koresh? Is he speaking with the Mormon church?? Is he a Jehovah's Witness that has seen the light??? Your situation assumes that both are being led by the Holy Spirit, so the outcome is an impossibility, since the Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself. What if Mr C is a mormon and he sees that the Scriptures don't really say what the church is saying?? Is he wrong for disagreeing with the church and seeing the light. If you are saying the church is inspired and the Mr.C are inspired then they wouldn't diagree. Do you see my point???

JM

[SoothingDave]

Yet another construct by the Catholic Church, eventhough there is NO scriptural backing and flies in the face of the Lazurus/Rich Man story in look, and the robber on the Cross.

Wasn't the rich man in hell? How does this negate the idea of Purgation?

As for the robber on the Cross, who says Purgatory takes "time" as we know it?

SD

[al_c]

Modano got a loose puck behind one of our guys at our blue line and a stick got swung low and Modano fell down.

Sounds like what Modano did when he got put in the penalty box. I wish they'd just let these guys play hockey.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Try 1 John again! 1:9-2:2, We are going to sin, but if we confess he will forgive us. Once again, when we do what God says we show our love.

Becky

[al_c]

and the robber on the Cross

Could the cross have been his purgatory? Just a thought ...

[OLD REGGIE]

Paul was given the Spirit, just like you or me, to "lead him unto all truth." Yet he had to go and check with the Apostles to make sure he was "on the same page" as them? How can this be? Do you think the Holy Spirit could have erred in what He told Paul?

Too bad "Pope" Peter didn't check with the other Apostles before Paul had to call him down. Of course, we know Peter's hypocrasy was a result of his "human" side, not his "infallible" side.

[JohnnyM]

Ok, al. Here goes. If you say I can lose my salvation through my actions, than that implies that I can gain it back by getting back in grace with God, which leads to works. Now if I can get back into grace with God, then that means Christ's death on the Cross was not sufficient enough to save me, since through my actions i can nullify His work, and I can "achieve" His work on the Cross by regaining grace with God. The passage in Hebrews is perfect because it says, that if I fall away (which is impossible), then I could never be saved again, because it would be impossible for Christ to die again on the Cross for my sins. So by saying you lose your salvation by falling out of grace and then regaining grace through your actions, you are in essence saying Christ's work was insufficient to save you in the first place, so why have Him die again, if that is going to be insufficient as well.

So, when we sin, we are losing communion with God. There is a relationship issue. We cannot come before God, because we have unconfessed sin in our lives. So we need to seek forgiveness to restore that relationship with God. Does that make sense?

JM

[al_c]

Try 1 John again! 1:9-2:2,

I will make it a point to read 1John tonight.

We are going to sin, but if we confess and repent (my addition) he will forgive us.

Once again, when we do what God says we show our love.

And when we do not do what God says, we do not show love.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh but Johnny, they think the rich man WAS in pugatory! They also believe it is a parable.

Becky

[JohnnyM]

can you please show me Scripture that supports the idea of Purgatory??

JM

[SoothingDave]

"Does my story sound like a reasonable application of Sola Scriptura?"

No. Because you are assuming that both the Church and Mr.C are being guided by the Holy Spirit, and obviously that is not the case here.

I never said that. I am not arguing who is truly inspired and who is not. (Obviously it can't be both.) I am asking if Mr C followed the principles of Sola Scriptura. That's all.

Is Mr.C attending the Branch Dividians led by David Koresh? Is he speaking with the Mormon church?? Is he a Jehovah's Witness that has seen the light??? Your situation assumes that both are being led by the Holy Spirit, so the outcome is an impossibility, since the Holy Spirit will not contradict Himself. What if Mr C is a mormon and he sees that the Scriptures don't really say what the church is saying?? Is he wrong for disagreeing with the church and seeing the light. If you are saying the church is inspired and the Mr.C are inspired then they wouldn't diagree. Do you see my point???

Please, please, please forget about any of this. I am not arguing for multiple truths or confusion in the Holy Spirit. Did Mr C follow the principles of Sola Scriptura or not?

SD

[al_c]

Ok, al. Here goes. If you say I can lose my salvation through my actions, than that implies that I can gain it back by getting back in grace with God, which leads to works.

Not really. Confession and repentance, perhaps.

Now if I can get back into grace with God, then that means Christ's death on the Cross was not sufficient enough to save me, since through my actions i can nullify His work,

Not exactly. Christ's death and resurrection is our saving grace, but we are still called to confess and repent. If our actions have no outcome on our salvation, then why are we called to do that?

and I can "achieve" His work on the Cross by regaining grace with God. The passage in Hebrews is perfect because it says, that if I fall away (which is impossible), then I could never be saved again, because it would be impossible for Christ to die again on the Cross for my sins.

I know the passage you're talking about, but could you give the chapter/verses? Thanks.

So by saying you lose your salvation by falling out of grace and then regaining grace through your actions, you are in essence saying Christ's work was insufficient to save you in the first place, so why have Him die again, if that is going to be insufficient as well.

I don't think that's what I'm saying. Perhaps a study on Hebrews is in order. I'll get back to you on this.

So, when we sin, we are losing communion with God. There is a relationship issue. We cannot come before God, because we have unconfessed sin in our lives. So we need to seek forgiveness to restore that relationship with God. Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

[SoothingDave]

If you say I can lose my salvation through my actions, than that implies that I can gain it back by getting back in grace with God, which leads to works.

Nothing like starting your argument off on a non sequitur.

One more time. We can lose our salvation by refusing it, by our actions. We can re-gain it by repenting and asking for God's forgiveness. That's it. No works.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

The Vulgate and Douay-Rheims are out of print RIGHT NOW.

Not at all. I could easily buy either version. (Of course I get secret Catholic Book catalogs.) Besides I had already told you where to find the Douay online.

I believe it was dignan3 who gave me an online Latin Vulgate site and you who gave me the Douay-Rheims site. I am certain I thanked the both of you, and any others who helped. Do you need more thanks?

If you recall, my complaint was they were available for sale only. Remember chiding me for being cheap?

Let's get technical: "out of print" = "not for sale"????????????????????

Hmmmmmmm, something about that doesn't look right.

[SoothingDave]

Does someone have the chater and verse for the Lazarus/rich man story??

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

We then run the risk of being told "I do not know you" when our judgment day comes.

The verse you are referenceing here is being taken out of context. Jesus was not speaking about people who sin, but to people who are trying to work their way to heaven with good works, by being good people Matt. 7:21-23: This is a clear teaching that just being a good person, and doing good works will not get you to heaven. And if you are trying to work your way to heaven with good works instead of trusting that the work of Jesus is what gets us to heaven, you are working iniquities, and Jesus will say "I do not know you"

John 6;28-29 Then said they unto him what must we do to work the work of God, Jesus answered and said This is the work of God that ye believe on him who he has sent.

Becky