The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

I also have uneasiness with the elevation during the consecration prayer. The practice originated during medeival times when the laity only communicated once or twice a year. The elevation was the "plain folks'" only chance to communicate with Christ during the Mass. This is a perfect example of why the Church really did need reform at the time of the reformation.

I'm not sure that that is the reason for the elevation. If the species did change just prior to that moment, then raising them high for all to see is not a bad idea, IMO.

I'm not sure I understand your objection.

SD

[Havoc]

History shows the greater number of victims is on the side of the faithful of the one church founded by Christ.

Oh brother - this must be a result of Cathbonics.

[Irisshlass]

The Church consists of the teachings of Jesus Christ which was given to us through the Apostles. In exercising the teaching authority, the Church does not add or subtract from scripture but protects.

Church's teaching authority... Acts 2:42 they kept the teaching of the apostles I Thess 5:12-13 respect ministers I Cor 4:18 authority of Paul Acts 1:21-22, 26 official witnesses to the resurrection Scripture and tradition II Thess 2:5 tradition* II Tim 2:14-17 scripture

Sacred Scripture makes it clear when even the most sincere believers are left to themselves without a guiding authority, they wandor off in error.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel--not that there is a different gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that whch we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8)

``So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.'' (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. (2 Tim 4:3-4) as St. Paul writes to a junior bishop.

[OLD REGGIE]

Absoloutely beautiful. I'm particularly impressed to note she's is smart enough to wear a hat.

The best for you and yours.

[Havoc]

Or a hymen if I understand correctly...

Not quite the idea; but, I think you get it LOL.

[malakhi]

Put us down for the Jewish Temple and Charismatic, Church on The Move here in Tulsa.

Will do, although I hope the reform temple in Tulsa follows something like a normal Jewish worship. Some reform temples are very traditional, and some are very eclectic.

[Fury]

Havoc wrote:

"That said, from personal experience combined with documentaries and readings, your church seems to think that waving crosses and saying 'in the name of the father, son and holy ghost go away' has some importance. Waving symbols is of no use, nor is the invocation of non-specific authority. It may look and sound impressive; but, it is of no practical use."

Thanks, Fury, I forgot this one. I am sure Havoc will correct me, but it looks like he is saying that "the name of the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit" is some type of "non-specific authority."

Havoc, we Catholics know who the Godhead is. Do you?

SD

Agreed, SD. It takes some misplaced courage for Havoc to diminish Matthew 28:19:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

[Wordsmith]

Outside of Lent, would you have a normal Liturgy on a weekday? (Like we have normal weekday morning Masses.)

Unfortunately, it depends on the Church. The ideal is certainly to have a daily weekday Liturgy during all times, except, I believe, Lent. This is certainly the standard at any monastery, but unfortunately only at very few Churches in the States - only one that I've ever attended kept up this practice. However, all Churches will perform a weekday evening full Liturgy - often the longer Liturgy of St. Basil rather than the standard Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom - on the eve of a Great Feast, such as the Feast of the Annunciation. Thank God, this means an extra weekly Liturgy at least once a month, on average. But the lack of access to daily Liturgy definitely increases the importance of a regular prayer rule and attendance at vespers services and such.

[Havoc]

We have demonstrated many times on these threads that the universal authority of the Bishop of Rome can be traced all the way back into the first century and is thoroughly documented long before the ninth.

Using fraud to support your arguments against the same fraud is bad form. Such evidence did not exist prior to the 9th century ad. Only claims existed. Which is why the Orthodox split, they knew what was going on as well as we do now.

[Irisshlass]

Becky..you pick and choose what you want to believe in scripture according to your own beliefs instead of believing in all of Holy Scripture..I gave you scripture of Jesus Christ's own words not mine..

[Havoc]

Saint Lucy (a.k.a. Santa Lucia)

Is that the saint you pray to for dog bites? Oh wait, no it isn't. Who is Lucy - never heard of her. She another one of those that was paid good money for?

[JHavard]

JHavard - "thought provoking" enough for you?

Have you ever considered giving up your (so called) job at the bank, and take up professional mocking for a living? you'd be a natural.

Here in Florida we have lot's of birds that mock others, and they are called "mocking birds" and you can never be sure if they are the real thing or a fakes.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Who is Lucy - never heard of her

I think she had a tv show with some Cuban guy. :)

BigMack

[JHavard]

Becky..you pick and choose what you want to believe in scripture according to your own beliefs instead of believing in all of Holy Scripture..I gave you scripture of Jesus Christ's own words not mine..

Wow, this has to be a first, an NC being accused of ignoring the scripture, I can't wait to see how this turns out. Lol (^g^) JH

[Irisshlass]

Disprove it instead of attack Havoc...not just history but even today...pick up a paper and read it sometime.

[trad_anglican]

We don't define exactly at what point during the Liturgy this presence begins, but affirm that it definitely and only occurs during the Liturgy, the common work of the faithful.

You may want to re-check this one. There have been vigorous debates througout the years between eastern and western churches on this issue. The eastern (Orthodox) churches in the main insist that the invocation is the "moment" of consecration whereas the western (Roman) position is that it is at the words of institution. We Anglicans choose to stay out of the debate entirely and say at the start of the prayer it's bread and wine, at the end of the prayer it body and blood.

If I've mis-stated the Orthodox position on this, I apologize and profess my ignorance of many things "eastern." Same goes for Rome.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Becky..you pick and choose what you want to believe in scripture according to your own beliefs instead of believing in all of Holy Scripture..I gave you scripture of Jesus Christ's own words not mine..

Irisshlass..you pick and choose what you want to believe in scripture according to your own beliefs instead of believing in all of Holy Scripture..I gave you scripture of Jesus Christ's own words not mine..

:)

BigMack

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Is there an echo in here?

[OLD REGGIE]

The word Protestant has a definable meaning. The fact that the root "Protest" and the root "ant" both have valid meanings in and of themselves does not mean that "an objectionable insect" is a "definition that most definitely exists" for "protestant". Although, perhaps in some cases I'll admit an exception.

Your point is well taken but your example is not.

Grammar can be fun sometimes. Take the word "Protestant". So often in the context of Roman Catholic apologetics the word has a negative connotation--a Protestant is one who protests against legitimate authority without offering anything better or more in accord with truth. There is even an essay that attempts to capitalize on this supposed destructive, naysaying essential nature of being "Protestant". And yet, the derivation of the word "Protestant" dramatically shows otherwise. Whereas Roman apologists often tend to think of the term "protest" in negative manner, the word derives from the Latin pro + testare, which together mean "to witness for". In other words, to "protest" is an essentially positive action, not a negative one. This is an important point, especially because the Reformers did not set out to overthrow the Church or chunk everything they didn't personally like, as the Roman apologist case often goes. Rather, their work was aimed at recovering things that had been lost--conserving what was good from the past while eliminating harmful innovations.

Pro Testare

[trad_anglican]

We have a similar type of thing on Good Friday. It (and the saturday following) is the only day of the year when no Mass is performed. If you go to "Mass" that day, there is no Mass. There is a service like a Mass, but there is no consecration, just a distribution of pre-consecrated hosts.

We have a similar practice on Good Friday. The sacrament is reserved on the altar of repose as the high altar is stripped bare on Maunday Thursday. We recess to retrieve it and process back to the alter. Communion on Good Friday is in one kind only from the reserved sacrament. Our Good Friday liturgy is, IMO, the most beautiful and moving of all our services. We have no communion at all on Holy Saturday. Our Easter Vigil is quite simple. However, there are many Anglican parishes that do Easter Vigil the old fashioned way. Starting around 10 at night and winding up around 2 on Easter morning.

I have heard about the Orthodox Liturgy of the Presanctified. From what I hear, nobody does processions like you folks do. And I mean that in a good way.