Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I see you as the most qualified to tell us what hate is on these threads.
All I have is this catholic dictionary. And it seems to have omitted the word. Oh well, at least they're consistent.
Yes, I understand all that. I agree that their reactions, based on the Biblical record were not much differert, but Zechariah was made mute due to the fact that he should have known better than to question the Lord's word in his situation. The angel cut Mary slack due to her young age and circumstances. Thus, it doesn't prove what Pelayo wants it to prove IMO.
But it doesn't really matter because He was God. So whether he had brothers and sisters is irrelevant (except when you're trying to fight Arianism and you're losing). The fact that He was God is hard to believe. Not that He might have brothers and sisters. You Catholics have been so careful to stress Jesus' humanity (and I think rightly so). Why not stress his humanity here? Jesus Christ was human. Crowd: How human was he? Johnny: He was sooo human, He had brothers and sisters.
In sum on this point, the primary miracle is the Incarnation (on that I think we agree). After that, anything is easy to believe.
I could see where if I were told to father God's own Son I wouldn't be real keen to have more kids.
This sounds like a personal preference you are forcing onto Mary and Joseph. You say that we force our personal preferences onto Joseph when we claim that if he was gonna get married he wanted to have sex. You are forcing your personal preferences upon them here. I would think that Jesus was a pretty good kid and having a kid like that might encourage a parent to have another. Course, when the first one's good, you know the next one is gonna be trouble. Can you imagine the comparisons? "Why can't you be more like Jesus?" And the kids wandering around with the WWJD bracelets and you're just Jesus' brother (kidding on the last bit of course).
As a man I think it would be fairly intimidating to even think that I could use the very womb in which my God gestated as a source of personal pleasure.
This is just another personal preference. I do not know of any precedence by which wombs are declared sacred spots. I think that Catholics see Mary as deserving of some special honor on her merit. And Proddies see her as deserving of the same honor as all who accept the will of God for their lives. No doubt her task was more important than millions others put together, but all any of us can do is respond to God's will.
And I see you have echoed my point on sibling rivalries.
Now we're getting to the meat. The bottom line (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Catholic conception of original sin leads a Catholic to the logical conclusion that Mary was without sin her entire life. And further, that she was immaculately conceived. Perhaps this is the sticking point for Protestants in the argument over Mary's children (it is for me). Perhaps this foundational argument is the real problem that we have with perpetual virginity.
I disagree for the following reasons.
1) The question of free will vs. pre-destination is one of means of salvation, not the agent. In other words, it's trying to explain a mystery, that of the regeneration of sinful humanity. The two sides see the picture from different perspectives and thus formulate their pictures based upon their perspectives, but
2) They both agree that salvation is by grace through faith. Some will say that those who are the elect are determined by God as He draws them. The others say that God draws all and those who receive the gift of faith are saved. But, in the end, those who believe are saved, whether they were "elected" or "chose" (both weighted words, but almost impossible to avoid at least one of em).
3) Both will agree that a Christian will live a Christian life (except for hyper-Calvinists who don't really poke their heads out of their burrows much). Some will say that living their Christian life is evidence of their election. The others will say that living their Christian life is perservering (weighted the word the other way, sorry).
So, in the end, the fundamental truths of salvation remain intact no matter which side of the fence one stands upon in this issue. So, the argument over Pre-destination vs. Free-will, to me is an argument over a tangent (the manner in which we came to salvation) and not the main point (salvation).
I was just sitting here switching channels between the Mariners/Yankees game and the TX Longhorn/Colorado game (sorry, Steven ... the Buffs are going down) and I remembered that you were on the Catholic side of the fence. My apologies for the mistake.
But your still a Redskin fan. ;o)
Yes, it's a good one, isn't it? You're welcome.
Well, kids, I'm outa here again. Just wanted to correct an earlier mistake. See y'all tomorrow.
I have posted on this before. Kecharitomene has nothing to do with who or what Mary was. Charitoo is simply to show grace to. Kecharitomene is a perfect participle in the middle/passive voice of charitoo^. In other words, Mary is being shown grace (thus the middle-passive), not on any necessary merit of her own, but as we all are shown grace. Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Luke 1:18 And Zechari'ah said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years." 19 And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news. 20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time."
As you can see Zachariah asks "How shall I know this?" indicating disbelief and requesting a sign as proof.
Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" 35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. 36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible." 38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
How shall this be? Not How shall I know this, or how shall I believe you? Mary believes that it shall happen, but being a young girl she would no doubt be afraid. She isn't asking for proof or signs, just "how will it happen?" And once it is explain she no longer fears, for she is truly Blessed (Favored/Given Grace from the LORD/ Full of Grace).
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