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1 posted on 10/12/2001 4:02:51 AM PDT by Mr. Polish-hammer
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
If religion fosters socialism, how does she explain the religous founding, and continuing religous existence of the USA? Moreover, why is it that the strongly socialist countries (USSR, Sweden, etc.) are strongly atheist, or have governments that despise religion?

Libertarian revisionist history holds that the United States was actually founded by hemp-smoking Judeo-Christian-despising athiests and deists on the principle that Judeo-Christianity is a collection of detestable superstitions that are anathema to liberty.

52 posted on 10/12/2001 6:57:51 AM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
Atlas Shrugged is an important, thought-provoking book, but from a purely literary perspective, it's not that well written. The book basically consists of cardboard characters regurgitating huge chunks of Rand's philosophy. After the seventh or so 20 page speech about the evils of collectivism, it starts getting a little old. Rand was certainly inconsistent, and her personal life was downright bizarre, but she was one of the 20th Century's most ardent defenders of capitalism, for which we should all be grateful.

If you'd like to know more about Rand, then I suggest you read the books Barbara and Nathaniel Branden wrote. They both had a huge falling out with Rand, but I do think they are able to give a fair assessment of Rand's many faults and virtues. And if there's an immensely entertaining science-fiction novel by Matt Ruff named Sewer, Gas, and Electric, which deals quite heavily with Both Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged, that is worth checking out as well.

66 posted on 10/12/2001 7:36:25 AM PDT by Slayer
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
One of my problems with it was that if Reason is so important, why does she have to use ad hominem attacks to defend it, basically calling everyone who doesn't agree with her stupid?
73 posted on 10/12/2001 8:19:40 AM PDT by Styria
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
She places capitalism into her own moral egoist philosophy; capitalism is not a means to an end, but an end in itself, a moral one.

Go back and re read the book. Capitalism is the result of free people in the pursuit of happiness. Trading value for value, by mutual agreement to mutual profit.

So donating to charity, in her mind, is immoral. To me, donating to charity is perfectly moral.

Atlas Shrugged may not be the best on this subject, Read The Fountainhead, Roark says that when you come upon suffering, you want to help and provide assistance, it is only natural. But to make the relief of suffering your prime goal, is to elevate suffering to a value.

Another strange aspect to her writing is her animus toward religion

True, my only problem with her. In The Fountainhead, she definitely makes the case for a spirit in each man, and what is right and proper that emenates from that spirit. IMHO the reason that she couldn't associate this spirit with God, was because she looked at every availlable religion, and all of their teachings. She found too many inconsistencies, which led her to believe that they were all wrong.

God has to be found within oneself, he cannot be found in other people. Some may light the way, but you must take the road yourself. I encourage you to read The Fountainhead, for her description of the "spirit of man", and then Read The Book of Matthew, specially Chapters 5 thru 8, (including the Sermon on the Mount). The case for Individualism was put forth first by Christ.

77 posted on 10/12/2001 8:41:35 AM PDT by morque2001
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
For a full-scale review of the book, read Big Sister is Watching You, Whittaker Chambers' devastating dismantlement of Rand's philosophy. (The actual review is about half-way down the page....)
79 posted on 10/12/2001 8:42:25 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
I believe your own self-chosen headline is quite accurate.

'Nuff said.

84 posted on 10/12/2001 9:08:14 AM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
Acting in ones self-interest is moral, altruism is immoral.

What she is saying is that man's life and worth must be measured by something more than whether he lived in service to others. If the highest value is to serve others, then life is nothing more than a daisy chain of slavery.

Nothing wrong with helping someone out, but it should not be the highest value, or even raised to the level of a value.

Besides, I can't give you the shirt off my back, if I haven't pursued my own self-interest and earned the shirt in the first place.

When self-immolation becomes a virtue and man is most virtuous when serving as a sacrifice for the need of others, you have a society of cannibals who serve their meat well-done.

87 posted on 10/12/2001 9:20:19 AM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
Another strange aspect to her writing is her animus toward religion. Religion takes a beating in "Atlas Shrugged",

She was an athiest. Her philosohy of "objectivism" was her religion and she was her own god. I have an athiest friend who is the same way, so I know of what I speak.

(Sorry if I have offended some people. This is just my opinion. I have read Atlas and I really liked it, I just do not subscribe to all of her philosophy.)

106 posted on 10/12/2001 10:29:15 AM PDT by A. Patriot
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
I had to read Anthem in high school and it almost put me to sleep. Her stuff reads like a 3rd rate version of a far SUPERIOR book, George Orwell's 1984 . Rand's version was longer, duller, redundant, and keep hitting you over the head with the theme as if her readers were too dumb to figure it out for themselves. The dialogue was so manufactured to fit the theme ("a society with no individuals"), it came off and silly and trite. Skip Rand. Try Orwell or Bradbury. Now THOSE guys are writers!

(And as for Atlas Shrugged , the line "Who is John Galt" gets a little tedious when you see it for the 80 millionth time!)

118 posted on 10/12/2001 12:29:03 PM PDT by BillyBoy
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
To Ayn Rand, the lazy and incompetent, those without ambition, are immoral. Even if they seek no harm, mind their own business, and violate no ones rights, they are still immoral. Their only sin is to not be productive, which only harms society as a whole. It seems that Ayn Rand deems immoral that which does not benefit her, her being part of society.

Curious this, because for some religions or sects contemplation and being are considered the ideal. The concept of "productivity" also bears some examination. One problem may be that it becomes hard to separate out Randian productivity from the seeking of primacy or power. Rand would deny this, but your reading seems to point to a tension in Rand's relationship to power and power seeking. She attacks it, yet also glorifies it, so long as it's channelled in the way she prefers. Is the line between the power she attacks and that she affirms and seeks really as clear as she would maintain? For the religious, the distinction between two uses or sources of power might seem much less clear than she would believe. Another question is the degree to which her views are reconcilable with religions. From what you say, it doesn't look like it.

128 posted on 10/12/2001 1:08:24 PM PDT by x
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
As has been said before:

"Your review is both good and original,
but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good."

129 posted on 10/12/2001 1:24:36 PM PDT by eddie willers
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
I'd be interested in hearing her defense

You might be interested in THIS THREAD
134 posted on 10/12/2001 6:00:52 PM PDT by BansheeBill
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
I enjoyed reading and rereading "Atlas Shrugged". I approach it now as a literary 'spotlight' statement against government sponsored socialism. It intentionally pits one ideology against another, while ignoring the bigger more complete picture of life.

Later I learned "Atlas Shrugged" was actually being used as a guide book by some early feminazis to promote self assertiveness.

139 posted on 10/13/2001 6:37:27 AM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer

147 posted on 10/13/2001 11:28:01 PM PDT by xm177e2
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To: Mr. Polish-hammer
I have to ask (if it hasn't been already) did you read Galt's speech all the way through, or did you skim after a few pages. Or did you, like many, skip it and read it afterward?
157 posted on 10/14/2001 12:57:56 AM PDT by Misterioso
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