They can't see why they are hated

The Guardian ^ | Thursday September 13, 2001 | Seumas Milne

[getoffmylawn]

Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.

Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts of the world.

But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated, potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.

As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally, bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations; maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.

If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a Churchillian response.

It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons' teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.

It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his genitals stuffed in his mouth.

But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out across the world.

All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker asked yesterday.

Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are addressed.

[American in Israel]

If these people screaming for blood had lived in one of the countries that have been injured by the American governments actions, they probably would have joined Bin Laden's forces years ago.

Ever served in the military? Ever spent time overseas? Have you ever been outside the pool you are peeing in?

In Haiti they put tires around peoples necks and light them on fire. It is the Police that do that, it is considered fun. In Lebanon, when Arafat was in control of the southern portion, they tie your hands to the bumper of a couple of Jeeps and your legs on another and see if they can pull you into equal pieces. It was the controling authorities that do that, it is considered fun to deliver the pieces to the door step of your wifes house without waking her so she can find you in the morning. In Afganistan, if your beard is not long enough they tie you to a post in the public square and whip the flesh off of your back. In Egypt if you are starving and steal a loaf of bread (there is no welfare checks there) they cut off your hand, there are no third time offenders.

Most people in the other parts of the world are too damn busy trying to survive to worry about what America is doing on the other side of the world. Only leftist liberal trash who are trying to find some whine that will hurt our concience and allow them to tap our wallets (note the comments about unfair wealth distribution) spend so much time worrying about Americans. Like the UN Raceist party, the very nations that were whining that their grandpa was old enough to be a slave so you should pay us money, own slaves themselves! Most people who have Jobs are darn glad to see American tourists because we are the most generious spenders on the planet. (busy distributing that wealth we MADE for OURSELVES by being free, hard workers.)

Frankly I do not give a rip if Pakykurdestanian's are pissed if I do not hate Saudigyptianianians like they do. I like who I like and that is my buisness. I do how ever highly object when they kill my family because I do not align with their politics on the other side of this planet.

Frankly I am normaly too busy enjoying my freedom, and working hard to support my family to worry about their wallets or their religion. But when they decide to come over on my side of the planet and kill people, I take it is time for me to convince them that it is not a good idea.

Just like the Palestinians, who are working so hard to destroy the society that feeds them, leftist liberals on the government payroll are trying to take down the parts of our society that produce something. Evil is evil, and is generaly pretty clueless. It has lots of opinions, and opinions along with a buck will buy you a candy bar.

I find you clueless, and one of the ones that stand under my umbrella when it rains. I just wish you would take a bath once and a while.

[monday]

**"The United States is an elephant on the rampage, raining death and destruction down on millions of people across the globe. " ** Lol did i miss something? The US is raining death and destruction on millons of people across the globe? What have you been smoking? I agree we should not be messing with the Serbs or anyone else for that matter, but i think you need some perspective? Sheesh, other people hate Americans cause we are rich, loud, and obnoxous. And they are jealous, even if they won't admit it.

[aculeus]

Graham Greene wrote The Quiet American. The author of The Ugly American is William Lederer

... and Eugene Burdick.

[Marduk]

"We know for certain that we are hated for our support of Israel, but what else?"

Support for Israel means support for Israel's excesses, which is what Arabs hate the most.

What else?

1)Support for corrupt governments like that of Saudi Arabia. It may our ally but it is corrupt to the core.

2)Support for anti-Muslim governments like that of Turkey. In the US, a mostly Christian country, a Muslim woman is free to cover herself up according to Islamic rules. But if a woman in Turkey, a traditionally Muslim country, chooses to cover herself she goes to jail as that is a criminal offense.

3)The bombing of Serbia makes Slavs hate us.

4)US support for the Muslims in Bosnia and Chechenya makes Russians hate us. NATO expansion pissed off the Russians.

5)The Gulf War and many US bombings of Iraq makes Muslims hate us.

6)The bombing of the Chinese Embassy pissed off the Chinese.

7)But what makes them hate us the most is US support for Zionism.

If you are willing to look with an open mind you'll find there are countless reasons.

[American in Israel]

To quote Gandhi: "An eye for an eye and the world will soon be blind"

May I point out that Gandhi is dead, and his people are being slaughtered by the thousands by Islamic’s with machetes. I think Gandhis solution was shall we say, short-sighted?

[American in Israel]

To quote Gandhi: "An eye for an eye and the world will soon be blind"

May I point out that Gandhi is dead, and his people are being slaughtered by the thousands by Islamic’s with machetes. I think Gandhis solution was shall we say, short-sighted?

[Marduk]

"While Chamberlain was referring to Checkoslovakia as a "far away land about which we know little", and handing it over to Hitler, British toops were STATIONED IN SINGAPORE guarding the interests of the Empire."

It is also worth to remember that the same British government did nothing when the USSR invaded Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. There was not a peep of complaint from the British when the USSR invaded the Eastern half of Poland in 1939, in accord with its deal with Hitler.

[Marduk]

"Read also in tamden with Foundations: their power and influence by rene wormser and a series of monographs by sociologist G. William Domhoff to further corroborate Quigley's view of the 20th Century. - to the tragedy, we are the hope- "

Once you understand these things you move beyond the left-right mindtrap.

[monday]

*"Were we wise to condemn Russian retaliation against the Chechen terrorists (also with direct links to bin Laden) who bombed apartment buildings in Moscow and St. Petersburg? Were we wise to aid and abet our own enemy? These are questions we must ponder."* Excellent post wonder! BUMP BUMP

[Petronski]

If I ever take drugs, get drunk, speak using filthy, suggestive language and parade myself naked in front an uneducated gang of druken male adolescents and then get raped nobody will have to tell me that I deserved it.

Yes, but what will you be doing Saturday night?

[Architect]

Lol did i miss something? The US is raining death and destruction on millons of people across the globe? What have you been smoking? I agree we should not be messing with the Serbs or anyone else for that matter, but i think you need some perspective?

How about a million Iraqis and two million Vietnamese to start with?

Sheesh, other people hate Americans cause we are rich, loud, and obnoxous. And they are jealous, even if they won't admit it

No, they hate Americans because Americans attack their countries. This particular act is directly related to American support of the Isreali occupation of Palestine.

[Vojvodina]

No one here is trying to justify these heinous crimes against civilian populations. However, don't you wanna know WHY it has come to this?

Do you know that the US Army has troops in 67 (!!!) countries around the globe? Some people don't like it. It is called IMPERIALISM.

Do you know that the US has waged no less than 200 (TWO HUNDRED!) covert and overt wars since the end of the WWII?

I am on your side, but I am not on the side of your government.

I am truly disgusted by these acts. The words cannot describe my disbelief and anger. Please don't call me a terrorist apologist just because I question their motives.

[American in Israel]

I have said it before here that Islamic terrorism is caused by Zionism

You sound like the guys that say muggers are caused by poverty. I think muggers are caused by people who would rather steal than work. In case you have not noticed, the very principles that founded America are the exact same principles as Zionism. The desire to make a free and just land governed by the principles of Law and under God. The same reason they hate Jews is the same reason they Hate Americans. If Israel was bigger than America We would have gotten it first... Muggers hate the people they mug. They try to justify their violence too. Know what stops muggers dead in their tracks? It ain't handing them your wallet, it is a 44mag. Works every time.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Don't expect to get anywhere with LadyJD she is against the USA for having defeated the CSA 140 yrs. ago. Thus, the terrorists are on her side against the Yankees.

Her head is filled with delusions of the right of secession and her hatred has made her incapable of judging properly. All state action is JBT to her. America is always wrong. She believes we can pull into a shell like some third world hellhole and just let evil run rampant.

But who would be surprised at the attitudes of those desperate to defend the Slaveocracy and its evil? Not me.

[Architect]

You sound like the guys that say muggers are caused by poverty.

Let's get real here. Which country has expelled hundreds of thousands of people and refused to discuss compensation, let alone repatriation? Which country has built a military network through the other? Which country bulldozes homes in the other? Which country sends in helicopter gunships into the other in order to murder civilians? Which country is in the process of colonizing the other?

Who are the real muggers?

[Marduk]

"There's a considerable difference between innocents dying as a result of legitimate military activity - loosely and cruelly termed "collateral damage" - and deliberately targeting innocents and nobody else."

Tell that to the mother who has lost her son as the result of "legitimate military activity". Tell that to the wife who lost her husband as a result of "legitimate military activity". Also note that the recent US bombings of Yugoslavia, Sudan and Afghanistan were in violation of international law and not "legitimate" according to international law.

[wonders]

Frankly I am normaly too busy enjoying my freedom, and working hard to support my family to worry about their wallets or their religion.

Fair enough. However, I hope you would agree that we must closely watch US foreign policy and our handling of terrorism.

In Kosovo, our State Department first said the UCK/KLA are "shadowy terrorists," "Che Guavera wanna-be's" considered by Interpol as the "scourge of Europe." But we send US State Dpt. emmissaries to negotiate with them anyway. Encouraged, these slaving narco-marfia-thug terrorists stepped up their terrorism (with help from CIA and Bin Laden AT THE SAME TIME) until the Yugoslavs struck back. The next thing you know, we're rewarding their terrorism BIG TIME, ignoring international law and the NATO Charter, using NATO as their air force. Now repeating the process in Macedonia (rewarding terrorists).

We condemned the Russians for trying to knock out the Chechen terrorists who were bombing their cities.

Then what does Clinton do? Tries to force some ridiculous "Mid-East Peace" for the sake of his "legacy" (with Chelsea in attendance, no less). Who among us didn't think he was playing with fire with that?

Well, we rewarded (in Kosovo) and sympathised with (Russia/Chechnya) terrorists before , especially when the terrosts were ruthless enough to provoke strong retaliation -- so what card did Arafat naturally play? Now Israel is aflame, with any hope for a peaceful settlement in the near future dead.

Where were the protests in the US while all this was played out?

I hope we have learned a lesson here. I only wish to Heaven it had not been such an unimagineably costly lesson.

The American people must be vigilant, and we must never, ever again sit back while our President and SOS reward terrorism. What we reward, we encourage.

[Marduk]

"I originally said it in response to someone saying that a large destructive attack would only result in more suicide bombers. My response is simple ... if you kill them all (or at least enough of them so that they cringe at the sound of aircraft or diesel engines), there won't be any revenge attacks.

The idea worked against the American Indians. "

Yeah how many ovens and gas chambers do you think will be necessary to exterminate 800 million Muslims? And when you're done with them I guess you'll give all their lands to Israel for use as Lebensraum. Frankly, I think it would be impossible to exterminate the Muslims even if you wanted to.

[Coyote]

And what about the little emerging fact that most of the actual perpetrators may have been Saudi Arabian citizens, among the wealthies benefactors of the little arrangement between them, the CIA, and MI6? What does that do to the theory about why we're hated by everyone we've already put blood, sweat, and tears into helping move from spears to plowshares?

I'm sure that at the outbreak of WWII, there were plenty of analysts, many right here in America, who would be saying the same thing in support of the Japanese and the German National Socialists. Come to think of it, there WERE plenty of them...for the first few months. Then their comments dissappeared, and lo and behold, four years later the world emerged, for good or bad, a VERY different place.

Looks as if a similar monumental change doesn't happen again, however much good or bad one's judgement may impune to those changes, the next set of body counts will be in six, seven, or even eight figures.

With those numbers in mind, if I were this writer, even if I dispised the NWO, I'd start reporting about how to prevent leaf rot on summer roses, rather than inflame this misunderstanding between the developed and developing world even more. Too late for analysis. Just too damn late.

[Judge Parker]

Re: your view on sanctions.

I must say, you are right. I believe they are not all that effective, and are destructive in many ways. I, however, do believe they were appropriate for South Africa, even though that country is being destroyed. If I would support them for South Africa, I'd sure support them for other countries, especially terrorist countries. You don't do the embargo for the country being embargoed - it's for other countries who have a tendency to follow the trail of violence. I would like to see a fense put around Syria, Iraq, and Iran. If they herded goats for the next thirty years, it would be a benefit to mankind. Other countries, who have some economic success, might become a little slower on the draw.

Again, I don't disagree with you about your opinion. An embargo may have worked against a specific country some place other than south Africa, but I don't know where. Yet, I had rather have a hard embargo for decades than to use B-52's on the population. And whatever we do, we do have to do something - and it has to be terrible. But, if it's not well thought out, we'll be just like Israel, fighting them forever. And, I don't think this will be the last horrible lick they get on us. AND, I don't think they care how many of their people die.

After the counter-attack, we should seriously consider not attacking other nations except in cases of true national emergency. Other people are going to have to be somewhat responsible for their own country, just like we have to be responsible for our own. Consequently, I believe we should make a devastating attack on terrorist training camps, possibly on the Taliban, and then we should quietly kill the leaders of the many extremist groups. They can be driven so far underground that their effectiveness will be sapped.