The FReeper Foxhole Profiles William Tecumseh Sherman - Mar. 29th, 2003

http://www.civilwarhome.com/sherbio.htm ^

[Non-Sequitur]

Anyone who purposefully targets civilians and their dwellings (no military value in those is there?) is a war criminal. In fact we tried the SS as war criminals for the same tactics, you can't have it both ways, Chuck.

But we didn't try the allied commanders of the bombing campaigns in Germany and Japan so apparently we can.

[stand watie]

as Sherman was a WAR CRIMINAL AND a MASS-KILLER of innocent American Indians by the thousand, PLEASE delete this thread.

otherwise remove me from this ping-list.

FYI, Sherman's troops MURDERED,raped,robbed & tortured 92 civilan (mostly women & small children!)members of MY family, only because they were NOT white.

free dixie,sw

[Jen]

The following is from SAMWolf who wrote the thread on Sherman:

The Foxhole covers Military History and biographies of our Country's Military Leaders, good or bad.

The Foxhole has covered events that don't show the US in a good light (Wounded Knee, the Philippines Insurrection, etc). It's our history, the events happened, the people participated in them, all we do is put it out there for people to read.

Sherman was a major figure in the War Between the States, and that is why I decided to present his biography. The Foxhole does not try to re-write History to be PC or hide the darker side of our history. I didn't think the thread was in any way an honor to Sherman.

Feel free to ask Antijen to place you back on the list if you change your mind and thanks for reading the Foxhole.

[apackof2]

Yankee Bump

[stand watie]

i don't mean to cause discord, BUT it's PERSONAL to those of us who are Indians,especially those of us who lost family.

the thread, imVho, honors a war criminal.

FRee dixie,sw

[Jen]

I'm very sorry about your family.

[Colt .45]

"But we didn't try the allied commanders of the bombing campaigns in Germany and Japan so apparently we can."

I figured you would trot out some lame excuse. As far as Germany went, they aimed their bomb loads (dumb bombs, mind you) with the Norden bombsight ... in light of today's technology, it was primitive. Plus the Allies were doing no more to Germany than Hitler did to London during the blitz.

You don't know much about the war in the Pacific do ya pal?! The war in the Pacific was a race war, the Japs were trying to exterminate us, and we were doing our best to take it back to them. The A-bombs were dropped so that we wouldn't lose a million troops invading the Japanese home islands. Read 'Prisoners of the Japanese' by Gavan Dawes, it really clues you in on the mentality of that theater.

Now as far a Sherman goes, he purposefully targeted civilians and non-military stuctures. His troops engaged in pillaging, burning, and sacking most towns they went through. His methodology was about the same as the Attila's horde. Conversely, the Southern forces did not engage in that type of conduct. The guerilla forces of Bloody Bill Anderson and Quantrill were the only ones that came close. As I have stated previously though, if you have no problem with Sherman's behaviour during his march, then you should have no problem with Quantrill's sacking of Lawrence, Kansas. But then Quantrill was an irregular, and Sherman was regular Army. So Sherman's behaviour isn't excused by any stretch of the imagination. He is a war criminal! The only reason he was never tried is because the North won.

[stand watie]

understood & thanks.

it's NOT a pretty story for the bedtime entertainment of small children.

FRee dixie,sw

[fire_eye]

I was not aware of Sherman's dead-on animus vis a vis the press.

He made some priceless (and timeless) comments on reporters (I didn't see them in here, so I'll repeat them or paraphrase them):

"If I had them all shot at sunrise, there would be news from Hell before noon".
"They are all desperate to dip their pens in some poor wretch's blood".

But my Southern relatives still remember him, after 4 or 5 generations... and (to put it mildly) he's *still* not winning any popularity contests down there...

[Non-Sequitur]

But my Southern relatives still remember him, after 4 or 5 generations... and (to put it mildly) he's *still* not winning any popularity contests down there...

With all due respect to you and your family, Sherman wasn't out to win any popularity contests he was out to win a war.

[Non-Sequitur]

As I have stated previously though, if you have no problem with Sherman's behaviour during his march, then you should have no problem with Quantrill's sacking of Lawrence, Kansas.

A major difference between Sherman and southern officers like Quantrill is that Quantrill set off to Lawrences with the intention of murdering as many innocent civilians as he could in addition to burning the town. But I neither support or condemn Quantrill, but merely bring him up when you sothron types complain about Sherman.

[WhiskeyPapa]

If he burned everything else in the city, and meted out "special" punishment to the nuns, I look forward to your guess as to what that might have been.

You lied. You got caught.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

I figured you would trot out some lame excuse. As far as Germany went, they aimed their bomb loads (dumb bombs, mind you) with the Norden bombsight ... in light of today's technology, it was primitive.

Modern judgements on historical people are just silly.

The Norden bombsight was top drawer in 1943. When a B-17 or B-24 bomber box of 18 aircraft was on, they were on.

"On March 18th [1943] at Vegesack, the 305th managed to place 76% of its bombs within 1,000 feet of the MPI [Mean Point of Impact] in what proved to be the most precise piece of bombing so far turned out by the B-17's.

After two further missions to other French railyards without loss, the Force revisited to Germany. In perfect visibilty 73 B-17s and 24 B-24's dropped 268 tons of high explosive squarely on Bremer Vulkan Schiffbau, the submarine yards at Vegesack that had also been the briefed target for the first raid on the Reich back in January. From the evidence of reconnaisance photographs, seven submarines were assessed as severely damaged and two thirds of the shipyard buildings and much of the plant appeared to have been demolished....this mission was later said to have proved the case for high-altitude precision bombing, and its success doubtless influenced those US war leaders who sought evidence to justify the direction of a goodly part of the US war effort to creating a strategic bombing force."

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a smoking ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy 3,075 lorries...the target was picked out inspite of industrial haze that shrouded much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19 factory buildings..."

"The first mission fulfilled under the new directive was the disruption of the synthetic rubber plant at Huls...Although the Eighth's first large scale penetration of the Ruhr, the most heavily defended area of the Third Reich at that time, the mission resulted in the most effective bombardment of a strategic target yet achieved...just under one quarter of the bomb tonnage dropped, exploded within the factory area rendering the plant inoperative for a month. Full production was not resumed for six months."

--The Mighty Eighth, by Roger Freeman

"The raiders managed to inflict heavy damage on the Focke-Wulf Factory at Oscherleben, where half their bombs fell within 1,000 feet of the aiming point, and on one of the three targets near Brunswick, where three quarters of the bombs found their mark."

"Despite the punishment they took, both the Regensburg and Schweinfurt raiders managed to inflict substantial damage on their targets. At Regensburg every important building was hit by incendiary or high explosive bombs."

--The Airwar in Europe, Time Life books

What General Sherman did was apply his means to achieve similar ends. You cry about it because you don't like the outcome.

This is where you tell us what a great general J.B. Hood was.

Walt

[stand watie]

another of your DAMNEDyankee LIES!

COL Quantrell's raid killed/injured exactly NO CIVILIANS! in point of fact, COL Quantrell stated publically, before the raid, that he would shoot any raider who harmed a civilian in any way.

every single one of the names on the "kill lists" were either Jayhawkers, 5th KS Volunteers or Redlegs. each of those persons were not only soldiers but also had committed WAR CRIMES both in KS & MO. some had also raided into Indian Territory, killing, robbing & raping INNOCENT civilians.

the only 2 WAR CRIMINALS who escaped their well-deserved end were LTC "Doc" Jennison & COL James Lane; those two escaped because Lane hid out in women's clothes to escape the raiders & Jennison was raiding farms in MO that day.

the cavalry raid on Lawrence was a PUNITIVE EXPEDITION, which was perfectly acceptable under international laws of war.

my GR-GR-GR-grandfather, PVT William James "Little Thunder" Freeman, was on the Lawrence raid.

free dixie,sw

[Non-Sequitur]

the cavalry raid on Lawrence was a PUNITIVE EXPEDITION, which was perfectly acceptable under international laws of war.

Shooting unarmed men and boys, civilian men and boys, was perfectly acceptable under the international laws of war, whatever the hell that is? Burning the town is acceptable? Then how can you complain about Sherman's actions? His was just a punitive expedition, on a slightly larger scale.

[Colt .45]

Within 1000 ft eh? Now applying your logic of using today's political standards to the War of Northern Aggression, one of the pilots in my old squadron (VFA-146) dropped a "dumb" bomb from 40,000 feet and hit within 50 foot of the bullseye. Plus you convienently forget to mention that atmospheric conditions will impact the trajectory of a bomb during its fall. If the air is denser (cold wet weather), the bomb will have a shorter trajectory. If it is hotter, the trajectory will be a little longer. Plus if one of the fins of the bomb is damaged, it will have an altered flight path. During the WW2, 1000 ft (or 10 football fields) was considered good, but now we look at anything within 6 meters (36 + or - feet as good). Dumb bombs were unguided projectiles (nothing more). Your assertion that Sherman did apply "his means to achieve similar ends" is crap! What he did was to sack all dwellings and towns he came across. His troops pillaged them, then burned them. They were for the most part (95% mind you) civilian structures with no military value whatsoever!

But you seem to want to apply today's political values, and even the Supreme Court's postwar judgements to 1850's and 60's pre-war & war conditions. So you assert that the secession was illegal .... I have proven you wrong, and so was the Supreme Court's judgement on that ... legally! You assert that all the South wanted to do was to maintain a dying institution in perpetuity, that the only reason they seceded was about that one particular institution (while it was mentioned, it was NOT the sole reason). And your assertion that the Founders set up a perpetual Union is tripe. The "perpetual" part was in the Articles of Confederation which were repealed, as in NO LONGER VALID OR IN FORCE. The preamble to the Constitution states "perfect Union" based on the ability of the States to negotiate between their politicians "peacefully". When the damnYankee States got greedy, that was what started the ball rolling. The South was finally sick of being abused by Washington D.C.'s yankee Politicians and yankee Capitalists, and she seceded as was her right. Acknowledged I might add by the Framers of the Constitution. Lincoln then invaded a separate nation illegally, and subjugated its populace through terror (i.e. Sherman's March) and an illegitimate war.

Now your own words will come back to haunt you Walt ... "Modern judgements on historical people are just silly."

[stand watie]

NOPE. what SHERMAN did was a series of WAR CRIMES, because he allowed evil deeds against INNOCENT CIVILIANS, rather than members of any military force.

what happened in Lawrence was A-OK, no matter what you WISH had happened there.

the Laws of War, according to the US Army FM, THE LAW OF LAND WARFARE,edition of 1969 (the one i happen to have), states that "the international law of land warfare has been well-settled for at least 400 years. all civilized nations adhere to its precepts." OBVIOUSLY the USA must NOT have been a civilized nation between 1861-65!

even the Lawrence Historical Museum, NO friend of dixie BTW, does NOT deny that the redlegs,jayhawkers & 5th KS were MEMBERS of recognised MILITARY UNITS of either the state of KS or the USA; furthermore, the museum curator told me about 10 years ago, when i was last there, that NO WOMEN OR CHILDREN WERE HARMED in any way.

would you have liked it better if COL Quantrell had allowed the WAR CRIMINALS time to go arm themselves and THEN kill them for their CRIMES?

GET REAL, N-S, what you don't like is, that once again,

1. i know more about something than you do AND

2.the DEAD were both CRIMINAL SCUM AND UNIONISTS AND

3. once again you've been caught in a DAMNEDyankee outright LIE. nothing more,nothing less.

free dixie,sw

[WhiskeyPapa]

But you seem to want to apply today's political values, and even the Supreme Court's postwar judgements to 1850's and 60's pre-war & war conditions.

I never quote the post-war Court. You know that.

The sesesh were damned traitors and they were called damned traitors at the time.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

During the WW2, 1000 ft (or 10 football fields)...

Ten football fields measure 3,000 feet long. It did in WWII also.

Walt

[Non-Sequitur]

even the Lawrence Historical Museum, NO friend of dixie BTW, does NOT deny that the redlegs,jayhawkers & 5th KS were MEMBERS of recognised MILITARY UNITS of either the state of KS or the USA; furthermore, the museum curator told me about 10 years ago, when i was last there, that NO WOMEN OR CHILDREN WERE HARMED in any way.

I live about 40 miles east of Lawrence. Now maybe there is a Lawrence Historical Museum on whatever planet you call home but here on Earth there is no Lawrence Historical Museum in Kansas, never has been. Who's the liar here?