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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
No independent nation would tolerate foreign military bases in the middle of a major city. Lincoln would not accept secession. The big, unasked question is why? Not the usual intoning of saving the union’, but why was the US unable to exist without South Carolina. By 1860, it seemed pretty clear most northerners wanted no part of the South and leading northern intellectuals such as Emerson encouraged feelings of hatred and contempt for Southerners. So why was the retention of the seceded slave states necessary?
7 posted on 10/15/2020 11:26:11 PM PDT by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: robowombat

Fort Sumpter was on an island in the harbor, not in the middle of the city.

Do you really want me to spend time taking apart the rest of your dissembling, when I could be spending it taking apart Joe Biden?


8 posted on 10/15/2020 11:34:38 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Reverse Wickard v Filburn (1942) - and - ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: robowombat

more than just one reason

first it becomes a foreign nation on your doorstep, closer to your important internal territory

it may become a warring state with great britain behind it or working together to fight you, or blockade or embargo you

loss of important geographical assets in the present and future

you can’t have moral understandings/agreements with people that believe other people are basically “smart cattle” and wont treat them as people with souls and basic human rights


9 posted on 10/15/2020 11:38:21 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not Averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: robowombat

It’s funny. You sound like a ChiCom.


20 posted on 10/16/2020 3:01:16 AM PDT by ifinnegan (Democrats kill babies and harvest their organs to sell)
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To: robowombat

Because it would have been a violation of his oath to accept secession. The constitution gives the executive branch zero authority to determine the status of a state. Even spineless James Buchanan understood that.

“Apart from the execution of the laws, so far as this may be practicable, the Executive has no authority to decide what shall be the relations between the Federal Government and South Carolina. He has been invested with no such discretion. He possesses no power to change the relations heretofore existing between them, much less to acknowledge the independence of that State. This would be to invest a mere executive officer with the power of recognizing the dissolution of the confederacy among our thirty-three sovereign States. It bears no resemblance to the recognition of a foreign de facto government, involving no such responsibility. Any attempt to do this would, on his part, be a naked act of usurpation. It is therefore my duty to submit to Congress the whole question in all its beatings. The course of events is so rapidly hastening forward that the emergency may soon arise when you may be called upon to decide the momentous question whether you possess the power by force of arms to compel a State to remain in the Union. I should feel myself recreant to my duty were I not to express an opinion on this important subject.”


36 posted on 10/16/2020 4:16:49 AM PDT by OIFVeteran
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To: robowombat
With regard to foreign military bases, do you back then specifically or just in general? If the latter, our hundreds of military bases scattered around the globe today would negate that point. But with regard to Fort Sumter, Article I, Section 8 Of the US. Constitution states

“The Congress shall have Power: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings.“

Did then legislature of S. Carolina consent to Fort Sumter being built in the harbor? If so, I don’t see how the case can be made that the South was in the right to attack the fort when the garrison refused to give it up to them, considering that S. Carolina had assented to the fort.

56 posted on 10/16/2020 8:10:42 AM PDT by TheDandyMan
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To: robowombat; UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide; Secret Agent Man; ifinnegan; OIFVeteran; TheDandyMan; ...
Like others here (i.e., rockrr), I wonder why you're doing this -- seriously, what value is added to the conservative movement by constantly picking at such old scabs?
Will this convince some Biden voters to flip for Trump?
Will it motivate some reluctant Trumpers to get out & vote?

I don't think so, do you?

Further, all these points have been argued ad infinitum, certainly to my satisfaction, so why not to yours?

From the article: "A typical calumny directed at Confederate soldiers is that they don’t merit commemoration because they were traitors.
It is a lie... "

The historical truth is that President Andrew Johnson issued thousands of individual pardons to Confederates who requested them, and eventually a blanket pardon to virtually all Confederates.
So legally, the issue of "traitors" is totally mute, and it's strictly a matter of opinion as to whether Confederates waging war against the United States meets the Constitution's definition of "treason".
I would simply notice that if there was no treason, then there'd be no need for pardons.
Case closed, right?

robowombat: "No independent nation would tolerate foreign military bases in the middle of a major city. "

Total nonsense since there are US & other military bases in many foreign countries all over the world.
And not all are friendly invites -- for many years in Berlin US forces there were threatened with war, Communist Cubans today demand US withdrawal from Guantanamo Bay, Spaniards demand Brits withdraw from Gibraltar, etc.

But perhaps the best examples are the long list of British forts & trading posts in US states & Northwest Territories after the Revolutionary War was over and Brits agreed to withdraw -- they didn't, for many years.
And one result of British support for Northwest Indians was the 1791 St. Clair's Defeat, recognized as the greatest single US Army defeat (relatively speaking) in US history.
US Gen. Arthur St. Clair's force of 1,000 men was almost entirely killed near headwaters of the Wabash River in Ohio.

And yet our Founders never used British forts on US territory or British support for Northwest Indians as an excuse to start a war.

robowombat: "Lincoln would not accept secession.
The big, unasked question is why?
Not the usual intoning of saving the union’..."

Why not?
What Marxist brainwashing did you receive which lead you to believe that American ideals and the US Constitution are of no consequence, and only Marxist economics & class warfare can explain "the real reasons"?

The truth, as many have pointed out (i.e., OIFVeteran) is the President has no authority to accept unilateral unapproved declarations of secession, period.
Congress might (it would need to be adjudicated) have that authority, but the President on his own cannot authorize states to come or go.
Lincoln's best offer to secessionists is the one he made in his First Inaugural -- in effect, "peaceful coexistence".
If Confederates would allow the Feds to do their basic functions -- i.e., mail, tariffs -- he'd leave them otherwise alone.

Confederate newspapers called that a Declaration of War.

robowombat: "...why was the US unable to exist without South Carolina."

South Carolina itself contributed virtually nothing to Federal revenues.
The entire seven-state Confederacy contributed well under 10% of Federal tariff revenues.
So the "real reason" was just what they said at the time: President Buchanan announced in February 1861 that the US would not give up Fort Sumter without a fight, and President Lincoln was determined the fort not surrender for lack of basic supplies.

That's it -- Jefferson Davis then used Lincoln's resupply mission has his excuse to start war at Fort Sumter.
No insane Marxist economic theories are required to explain Lincoln's actions.

robowombat: "By 1860, it seemed pretty clear most northerners wanted no part of the South and leading northern intellectuals such as Emerson encouraged feelings of hatred and contempt for Southerners."

Rubbish.
In 1860, just as today, the vast majority of Americans North and South loved their Union, revered their Constitution and respected their Federal government.
But then, just as today, a minority of radical Democrats (then known as "Fire Eaters") began waging political warfare against the United States and were successful in convincing a majority in the Deep South that Republican victory in 1860 meant the utter destruction of life as they knew it.
Perhaps the state of Mississippi said it best:


74 posted on 10/18/2020 8:12:14 AM PDT by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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