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Posted on 08/05/2005 8:33:09 PM PDT by alfa6
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 are acknowledged, affirmed and commemorated.
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 Hitler Goes South In the September 2002 issue of Airpower Magazine, Joe Mizrahi penned an alternative history of what might have happened in World War II if the Nazi’s had followed a slightly different course of action. What follows here is a highly condensed version of that article. It is July 1940, it took only 6 weeks for the Wermacht to vanquish the combined French and British forces in the Battle for France. The German High Command is examining it’s options. To the west lies a battered and bruised England, still defiant in the face of the NAZI war machine. As badly wounded as England is it’s greatest asset is still intact and poses a serious challenge to the German General Staff planners. The English Channel To the east lies Hitler’s greatest foe the Russians. It takes time however to plan and equip for an invasion of the size that will be needed to conquer the Russians. The General Staff is probably already working on the plans but they know that it cannot be done this year as there is not enough time. From history we know that the Germans tried to beat down the English from the air. While costing the RAF and the English dearly it cost the Luftwaffe even more. Over 2500 aircraft of all types were lost by the Germans along with a goodly portion of the highly trained aircrews. Let us suppose an alternate version of what might have been. After the fall of France the German high command looked at a different option and moved south towards Africa. The British forces in Africa are almost no existent. Total troop strength of all ranks in North Africa and the Middle East number no more than 60,000 of all ranks. There is little artillery and what few tanks are available would be no match for the German Panzers. The RAF fighter squadrons are equipped with Gloster Gladiator biplanes as a first line aircraft  and the few bomber squadrons are outfitted with the Bristol Blenheim Mk. 1s which were massacred during the fighting in France.  Also available to the British air commanders are a small number of Armstrong Whitworth Whitley bombers. The Whitley is about equal to Martin B-10.  After a month to rest and refit the Germans began the move to North Africa. Leaving several wings of fighters and bombers in France to keep the English occupied the Luftewaffe starts to move to North Africa. First to go are 3 wings of fighters followed by 4 wings of Bombers as well as 2 wings of Stukas. With control of the air virtually assured over the Mediterranean the German High command sends 6 panzer divisions and 10 motorized infantry divisions to North Africa. The Italians also send their best divisions to North Africa as well. While the Italians are no where near the equal of the Germans in training and equipment, their troops will be useful for protecting the lines of communication and for garrison duty. Frankly the English are in a bad way at this point. The RAF is hard pressed to spare any aircraft for Egypt as there are barely enough to protect the home islands. Even if there were spare aircraft to send there are no pilots to man them. While the British Army was able to rescue close to 250,000 of their troops as well as 100,000 of French and other nationalities in the Miracle of Dunkirk they have no equipment. Besides with the Luftwaffe sitting in North Africa how would they get to Egypt and the Middle East in a timely fashion.      |
 The German offensive in North Africa begins September 1st and easily sweeps away the small British Army under Gen. Wavell. The Luftewaffe with a numerical superiority over the British of about 20 to 1 wipe out the RAF in the first week. With the Stukas overhead supporting the Panzers it only take a couple of weeks for the German Army to reach the Nile.
 With the rapid defeat of the British, Spain’s Franco decides to help repay the Germans for their help in the Spanish Civil War by granting bases to the Germans Spanish Morocco and the Canary Islands. These bases enable the Germans to cut the British supply lines from Australia and New Zealand that go around the Cape of Good Hope. Turkey also gets into the act and drops it neutrality and joins up with the Axis Powers
 The Germans proceed on into Palestine and Iraq taking control of all of the Middle East and the oil supplies that are there. At this point much of the small Balkan countries jump on the Axis band wagon by either joining the Axis outright or proclaiming their neutrality. By the end of 1940 the Axis powers have complete control of North Africa from the Atlantic Ocean to the Nile effectively turning the Mediterranean Sea into a German lake. The Axis control all of Europe except for Spain, Sweden and Switzerland. German losses are almost non existent, certainly well below the 2500 plus aircraft that would have been lost in the Battle of Britian.
 Political ramifications are immense. The Japanese seeing how the Germans have carved up Europe almost at will decide to embark on their conquests earlier, after all what is there to stop them. The British Empire is almost finished. Germany sits astride the Middle East. Agents of both Germany and Japan are fomenting revolution in India, not that India needed much help. The Japanese have taken over Malay and Burma without too much of a struggle as England does not have the resources to help in the defense of their colonies. In the United States, which at the time was deeply divided, in an almost 50/50 split the isolationist have their hand strengthened. President Roosevelt does not give the British the 50 old destroyers and the Lend Lease bill falls short in Congress. The United States begins to build up its forces but it is with a “Fortress America” mentality.
 England is almost cut off from its remaining overseas possessions and is able to hang on only by the skin of it’s teeth. Germany now has 6 months to prepare for the invasion of Russia and with the addition of Turkey has acquired another ally and 40 to 50 more divisions of troops to use in the forthcoming Russian Campaign. |
Wow alfa6, good job. Sorry it took me so long to notice you had posted. We were watching old episodes of "Combat!" and got carried away. LOL.
We truly appreciate the time and effort of doing a thread for us. Sam and I often kid each other with "Neener, neener, I don't have to post tonight." Now at least for tonight we can both say it!!
I'll sleep on it and pop back in this afternoon to see what others have said and add my 2 cents worth. (With inflation, I guess that would be 37 cents worth now.)
Glad to be able to help out, I think I wore out the Preview/Edit button though :-)
Enjoy the night off
Regards
alfa6 ;>}
Suvorov claims his pseudonym was his army nickname, which actually intended to mean "smart-ass" (Aleksandr Suvorov was a famed Russian military commander of the 18th century).
He wrote a number of books about Stalin times, some of them are fictional, but several of them are deliberately historical, although written in a polemic, popular-science style, driving professional historians mad. The first one on the topic was Icebreaker, followed by several others. The books are about the history of World War II. The books are based on pieces of officially written memoires and documents of the Soviets. Suvorov's most significant claim was that Stalin had been preparing a great invasion of the whole of Nazi-occupied Europe, set to begin in July 1941 (most probably on July 6). The planned date followed Nazi invasion only about 2 weeks.
The idea about Stalin's preparations to strike was proposed earlier by dissident Pyotr Grigorenko. Suvorov evolved it in further detail and worked to substantiate it.
Suvorov's theory has both fans and opponents and was subject of flamed discussion, partly thanks to its political implications. Opinions differ among both neonazis and patriots of the former Soviet Union.
In his reply to patriots, Suvorov states his moral position as follows. The traditional theory of the outbreak of the German invasion of the Soviet Union portrays the Soviet Union, its army and its management as incapable, and this is hardly a partiotic position.
The most noted opposition to Suvorov is Israeli historian Gabriel Gorodetsky , and Russian generals Makhmut Gareyev and Dmitry Volkogonov . The opposition is claiming that Suvorov didn't complete his analysis of the disastrous beginning of the war. This group claims that, while Suvorov is correct in discerning true plans of Stalin and exposing the huge hardware potential of the Soviet military machine, they insist that Suvorov unreasonably dismissed the traditional arguments about problems claimed to plague the Red Army—supposedly poor leadership and low morale. The majority of their arguments were answered by Suvorov in his later books. However the dispute is not over. Some authors respond to Suvorov in Suvorov's own picky and nasty style. There are also a number of parodies on Suvorov's writings, e.g., the "proof" of the development of a jumping tank by the Soviets, as an additional "proof" of Stalin's aggressive plans.
Suvorov's theories agree with some statements of the former Prime Minister of Estonia Mart Laar . On August 20, 2004 he published an article in Wall Street Journal titled When Will Russia Say 'Sorry'?. In this article he said: The new evidence shows that by encouraging Hitler to start World War II, Stalin hoped to simultaneously ignite a world-wide revolution and conquer all of Europe. Suvorov's name was not mentioned.
".ms" is Montserrat, says Wikipedia.
Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.
Not just individuals become rear guards, but whole battallions and regiments. Unless the rear guard holds the whole group will likely be lost.
I wanted to show an American example of this perfect manhood, besides Audie Murphy, who did survive, and so I picked Charles de Glopper, who did not.
Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Co. C, 325th Glider Infantry, 82d Airborne Division. Place and date: Merderet River at la Fiere, France, 9 June 1944. Entered service at: Grand Island, N.Y. Birth: Grand Island, N.Y. General Order Number: 22, 28 February 1946.
CITATION: He was a member of Company C, 325th Glider Infantry, on 9 June 1944 advancing with the forward platoon to secure a bridgehead across the Merderet River at La Fiere, France. At Dawn the platoon had penetrated an outer line of machineguns and riflemen, but in so doing had become cut off from the rest of the company. Vastly superior forces began a decimation of the stricken unit and put in motion a flanking maneuver which would have completely exposed the American platoon in a shallow roadside ditch where it had taken cover. Detecting this danger, Pfc. DeGlopper volunteered to support his comrades by fire from his automatic rifle while they attempted a withdrawal through a break in a hedgerow 40 yards to the rear. Scorning a concentration of enemy automatic weapons and rifle fire, he walked from the ditch onto the road in full view of the Germans, and sprayed the hostile positions with assault fire. He was wounded, but he continued firing. Struck again, he started to fall; and yet his grim determination and valiant fighting spirit could not be broken. Kneeling in the roadway, weakened by his grievous wounds, he leveled his heavy weapon against the enemy and fired burst after burst until killed outright. He was successful in drawing the enemy action away from his fellow soldiers, who continued the fight from a more advantageous position and established the first bridgehead over the Merderet. In the area where he made his intrepid stand his comrades later found the ground strewn with dead Germans and many machineguns and automatic weapons which he had knocked out of action. Pfc. DeGlopper's gallant sacrifice and unflinching heroism while facing insurmountable odds were in great measure responsible for a highly important tactical victory in the Normandy Campaign.
That upside down star worn around the neck by a blue starry ribbon comes dearly. "All paid some, some paid all."
The story of Charles de Glopper exists so that we may refine our understanding of our duty. Mr. de Glopper would have it that way.
German-Japanese strategic linkage in India, followed by a joint Nazi-Imperial invasion of the Soviet Union, would've crushed Greater Russia and effectively isolated 3/4 of it's landmass from outside aid. But I have a feeling "Uncle Joe" would've simply retreated his forces deeper and deeper into the Steppes, and dug in. And such an effort would've drained Imperial troops from the attempted conquest of China, and driven Mao and Chiang yet closer together in their efforts to expel the hated Japanese invaders from their common soil--with the United States backing them up, and pouring war-fighting material into the Asian mainland. Imagine FReepers and DUmmies putting aside their differences long enough to expel invading Klingon's from the continental United States, with Europe (France excepted) backing us with economic support in the form of hard currency and material aid in the form of arms (I know, I know; but suspend disbelief for a minute).
In the meantime, Churchill's government falls, replaced by an "accommodation" coalition cabinet, and Wendell Wilkie defeats FDR for a third term and becomes the 33rd President of the United States--on Jan. 20, 1941.
Ah, but at this juncture the speculations really become interesting...
History is rarely a tangled knot, in retrospect. But the what woulda's? almost always are, and are fascinating to think about for just that reason.
My $0.02? There is no way Nazi Germany and their Imperial Japanese allies stay out of a conflict with the United States for very long, "isolationist" sentiment in this country or no: Hitler simply couldn't have restrained himself. And as long as Hitler doesn't develop the A-bomb before 1949, there was no way the Axis could've survived.
So we're right back to where we were in the real world by the end of 1945, albeit with many more combat deaths. And probably a great deal more radiation wafting through the atmosphere, as the fruits of the Manhattan Project become available for use and Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Cologne, Nuremberg, and the entire Ruhr region are incinerated from the air by the 8th Air Force's newly acquired Atomic bombs. Followed in the Pacific with much, much more than just Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
And before anyone flinches at that assessment, let us remember that, to the political powers, military planners, and American population at large circa this era "Atomic bombs" had no stigma as a weapon such as they do today, after years of the Cold War understanding of Mutual Assured Destruction that grew up in the generation that followed their introduction in warfare: by the standards of the time (save among a tiny group of physicists who were aware of their long term implications because they were the one that'd invented them), they were simply another military tool employed for the cause of Victory, period. Nothing more, nothing less.
In other words: it would have been a whole lot uglier--and bloodier--than it actually turned out to be. Just IMO.
Good morning ALL.
Tomorrow I join that select group of folk who add zero to their age each year. Just like this guy.
Good Saturday mornin' to each & every one of you. God Bless America and our troops everywhere.
Thanks for this great thread.
Morning, PE.
Getting old is lots of fun
your knees knock and your
engine won't run
it gets so you can't see
without your strong specs
your back feels like a wreck
your feet hurt, your knees lock,
and
you feel like you have been
hit with a rock...
Welcome to the Senior Trip.
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