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To: vox_PL; Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; SafeReturn; Brad's Gramma; AZamericonnie; ...



"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!



Good Saturday Morning Everyone.


If you want to be added to our ping list, let us know.


2 posted on 07/16/2005 9:35:12 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Professional Engineer

HEY!!! I'm here! Thanks for calling and checking on us. :-)

If Sam ever shuts up I'd love to talk to you, too.


3 posted on 07/16/2005 9:36:18 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.


4 posted on 07/16/2005 9:36:36 AM PDT by Aeronaut (2 Chronicles 7:14.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf

Mornin' Foxhole.

Along about my third cup of coffee in the morning, I'm scannin' the obits in our local rag.

More and more, I'm seeing women listed who served in the Armed Forces or Rosie the Riveter types.

BTW, we're heading north next month, and if we make it to your area, I'll give you a Howdy. Still working on our itinerary. Got a wedding to attend in La Pine and don't know what else or where we're headed.


9 posted on 07/16/2005 9:53:31 AM PDT by Diver Dave (Because He Lives, I CAN Face Tomorrow)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good afternoon, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.


11 posted on 07/16/2005 10:02:49 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-Gram.


18 posted on 07/16/2005 10:20:26 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Dining room, we don't need no stinkin dining room! Classroom space, on the other hand, is valuable.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Professional Engineer; Wneighbor; alfa6; Colonel_Flagg; PhilDragoo; ...

Good morning everyone.

24 posted on 07/16/2005 10:40:00 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Iris7; Valin; PAR35
Afternoon Glory Folks~

With respect to today's discussion. The closest I ever came to combat was SEC football at LSU. So I'm really not qualified to address this topic. However, I was thinking about the speech Gen. Patton gave to his troops before the Battle of the Bulge wherein he spoke about "when you look over at what use to be your friend and all you see is goo . . . well . . . you'll know what to do. I simply cannot fathom how a man could witness God's most wonderful creation, woman, being wasted in a combat zone.

I express this opinion with the heartfelt thanks to ALL those who serve (past and present), without whom, I could not express this opinion.

36 posted on 07/16/2005 12:27:52 PM PDT by w_over_w (I'm not overweight . . . I'm metabolically challenged.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good afternoon


38 posted on 07/16/2005 12:58:55 PM PDT by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All
On any problem of this nature I find Sun Tsu most accurate.

Sun Tsu had this, first, to say of women as troops.

"Sun Tzu Wu (=Sun Tzu) was a native of the Ch'i State. His ART OF WAR brought him to the notice of Ho Lu, [2] King of Wu. Ho Lu said to him: "I have carefully perused your 13 chapters. May I submit your theory of managing soldiers to a slight test?" Sun Tzu replied: "You may." Ho Lu asked: "May the test be applied to women?" The answer was again in the affirmative, so arrangements were made to bring 180 ladies out of the Palace.

Sun Tzu divided them into two companies, and placed one of the King's favorite concubines at the head of each. He then bade them all take spears in their hands, and addressed them thus: "I presume you know the difference between front and back, right hand and left hand?" The girls replied: Yes.

Sun Tzu went on: "When I say "Eyes front," you must look straight ahead. When I say "Left turn," you must face towards your left hand. When I say "Right turn," you must face towards your right hand. When I say "About turn," you must face right around towards your back." Again the girls assented. The words of command having been thus explained, he set up the halberds and battle-axes in order to begin the drill. Then, to the sound of drums, he gave the order "Right turn." But the girls only burst out laughing. Sun Tzu said: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame."

So he started drilling them again, and this time gave the order "Left turn," whereupon the girls once more burst into fits of laughter. Sun Tzu: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers."

So saying, he ordered the leaders of the two companies to be beheaded. Now the king of Wu was watching the scene from the top of a raised pavilion; and when he saw that his favorite concubines were about to be executed, he was greatly alarmed and hurried ly sent down the following message: "We are now quite satisfied as to our general's ability to handle troops. If we are bereft of these two concubines, our meat and drink will lose their savor. It is our wish that they shall not be beheaded."

Sun Tzu replied: "Having once received His Majesty's commission to be the general of his forces, there are certain commands of His Majesty which, acting in that capacity, I am unable to accept." Accordingly, he had the two leaders beheaded, and straightaway installed the pair next in order as leaders in their place. When this had been done, the drum was sounded for the drill once more; and the girls went through all the evolution, turning to the right or to the left, marching ahead or wheeling back, kneeling or standing, with perfect accuracy and precision, not venturing to utter a sound.

Then Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King saying: "Your soldiers, Sire, are now properly drilled and disciplined, and ready for your majesty's inspection. They can be put to any use that their sovereign may desire; bid them go through fire and water, and they will not disobey."

But the King replied: "Let our general cease drilling and return to camp. As for us, We have no wish to come down and inspect the troops." Thereupon Sun Tzu said: "The King is only fond of words, and cannot translate them into deeds." After that, Ho Lu saw that Sun Tzu was one who knew how to handle an army, and finally appointed him general. In the west, he defeated the Ch`u State and forced his way into Ying, the capital; to the north he put fear into the States of Ch`i and Chin, and spre ad his fame abroad amongst the feudal princes. And Sun Tzu shared in the might of the King."




Most excellent war story in my opinion. Probably my favorite.

Sun Tsu later states that when putting together military units to put together likes with likes. Young, with the young, women, with women, minorities with minorities. Volunteers with volunteers, draftees with draftees. Athletes with athletes, neighbors with neighbors, etc., etc. Never do the opposite and put unlikes together.

As far as what I would like to see right now, well, nothing is less important. I will point out that highly paid, highly skilled volunteer armies are a sign of late Empire. A later stage will see the armies mostly manned by foreigners.

Republics fight with their citizens. Being a "citizen" in Republican Rome meant reporting for military duty on zero notice at any time, bring with you your weapons and provisions. No pay, food, clothing, etc. were provided.

So, Draftees = Republic. When the draftees are not adequate material (as they are not now, and have not been since, what, 1970?) then the Republic is over.

Actually, less than perfectly willing draftees can be made into good troops. The methods necessary are strict. Guy Sajer mentions that one man in ten in his group being trained by a Wehrmacht Infantry division died from informal non-judicial execution. Like I say, strict measures.

52 posted on 07/16/2005 5:47:36 PM PDT by Iris7 ("What fools these mortals be!" - Puck, in "Midsummer Night's Dream")
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To: snippy_about_it
Good evening snippy, SAM, everyone.

Busy, busy, busy week, with almost no time to FReep! And Oklahoma HOT to boot.

I'm of two minds on this issue, and both of them are pretty ambiguous in their respective positions, at that.

When I was in the USAF, I served with many women who where ever bit the equal of their male counterparts in their ability to carry out the mission, and in some cases superior (this was a mobile TAC radar squadron).

In fact, I dated one.

Everyone see the problem?

Call it chivalry or chauvinism, but my instincts tell me that had the Red Army come crashing through the Fulda Gap (this was when the Berlin Wall was still up and running, Cold War Reagan-era), personal concerns might have compromised the mission on BOTH our parts (at least our part of it, anyway). Or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm open to, and understand, either point of view. And, no, I usually don't wear suspenders and a belt at the same time, but on this one I'm conflicted.

Have a good weekend everyone!

P.S. - I just asked my wife, and she's firmly against it. So disregard everything I just typed above: I'm now foursquare against it, too...LOL.

54 posted on 07/16/2005 6:05:35 PM PDT by A Jovial Cad ("A man's character is his fate." - Heraclitus)
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