Posted on 06/18/2005 8:14:30 AM PDT by snippy_about_it
Good morning!
Fine topic today .. my opinion is that without Spanish help Hitler couldn't have taken Gibraltar.
Churchill states in his memoirs that the British had a treaty dating back to the 1300s with Portugal which allowed British use of the Azores for naval bases, and they were prepared to use them in the event of the fall of Gibraltar.
However, Franco's intention was to keep Spain out of the war, meaning the Germans couldn't have attempted an assault from the landward side. I can't imagine a seaward assault being successful, and by 1941 the Crete operation had soured Hitler on large-scale airborne operations.
But the benefits would have been enormous. Churchill also writes about the difficulties inherent in bringing reinforcements for the Desert Army all the way around Cape Horn to the Suez Canal due to the presence of the Italian fleet in the Mediterranean - and this was even with British control of Gibraltar. Without it, holding Malta would have been even more difficult. Its fall would have opened the way for easier German supply to Africa, with all the danger to British forces and possessions in the Middle East that might have entailed.
Hitler (or at least some in the German High Command) did want to close the Straits of Gibraltar. In fact, preliminary negotiations took place with Franco on German troop movements through Spain, but Franco flatly refused and the plan was dropped.
Taking that into consideration, do we assume that further negotiations would have borne fruit and allowed German forces free passage through Spain, or do we assume that Spain would resist a German invasion?
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Morning Snippy.
Could have?
At that point in the war,IMHO, the Germans could have. Even if Spain had not allowed access to the Germans I believe they would not have been able to prevent the Germans from grabbing Gibraltar. However, Hitler was looking to the East and without Spanish cooperation I don't think he really wanted to commit the forces or time to the effort.
Should have?
There was no plan for an "African Campaign" at the time so I believe it would have been more of a "prestige" blow to the Brits at the time. But once the Germans decided to bolster the Italians in North Africa, the closing of the straits to the Allies would have changed the entire African Campaign shifting the advantage to the Axis. In conjunction with the taking of Malta the Med would have become an Axis lake.
((HUGS))Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.
Morning Aeronaut.
Good morning Snippy!
Had Hitler taken Gib, it would have been disastrous for Malta and North Africa, as the Brits would have had to ship everything via the Cape Horn/Suez route. Doenitz's subs would have had a field day. Raeder's capital ships could also have been far more effectively utilized with Gib as a safe harbour.
As for his actually TAKING Gib: well, that's an interesting question, one for those more versed in hypothetical situations than I.
Gooood Morning.
Now I can go try some of this "food" that I've been hearing so much about. I hear it's all the rage in Hollywood, everyone simply EVERYONE is trying it.
Hey Sam.
The only help that Hitler needed was for Spain to look the other way for a few weeks.
Gibraltar could have (and should have) been taken. The islands provide a more difficult question, since it would, at that point, have been difficult for either side to supply them. A determined British attack could have taken them, but German U-boats and perhaps surface ships operating out of Gib would have made life very difficult.
If they remained in Spanish/German hands, they would have been exposed to raids from the British surface fleet and would have faced the continual threat of invasion. In the end, however, they may not have been worth the cost to England at that stage of the war.
Very interesting. Thanks Colonel. Obviously today's topic was Sam's idea. I don't have enough knowledge to participate, however, I expect to learn much from the conversations. :-)
Thanks steveegg. Your two questions lead me to a third.
Can we assume that the Germans could have taken it regardless of what Franco wanted?
Hey, I've seen that place.
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