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Posted on 04/20/2005 9:30:57 PM PDT by SAMWolf
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 are acknowledged, affirmed and commemorated.
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| Our Mission: The FReeper Foxhole is dedicated to Veterans of our Nation's military forces and to others who are affected in their relationships with Veterans. In the FReeper Foxhole, Veterans or their family members should feel free to address their specific circumstances or whatever issues concern them in an atmosphere of peace, understanding, brotherhood and support. The FReeper Foxhole hopes to share with it's readers an open forum where we can learn about and discuss military history, military news and other topics of concern or interest to our readers be they Veteran's, Current Duty or anyone interested in what we have to offer. If the Foxhole makes someone appreciate, even a little, what others have sacrificed for us, then it has accomplished one of it's missions. We hope the Foxhole in some small way helps us to remember and honor those who came before us.
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Did American commanders needlessly send doughboys to their deaths during the hours before the 1918 armistice went into effect?  The encounter was amicable and respectful since members were dealing with the officer who had led America to victory in the Great War. However, a Republican committee member, Alvan T. Fuller of Massachusetts, deferentially posed a provocative query: "This question is somewhat irrelevant to the matter under discussion," Fuller began, "but I would like to ask General Pershing if American troops were ordered over the top on the other side on the morning of the day when under the terms of the Armistice firing was to cease...and that those troops who were not killed or wounded marched peacefully into Germany at 11 o'clock. Is that true?" Pershing answered with his customary crisp confidence: When the subject of the armistice was under discussion we did not know what the purpose of it was definitely, whether it was something proposed by the German High Command to gain time or whether they were sincere in their desire to have an armistice; and the mere discussion of an armistice would not be sufficient grounds for any judicious commander to relax his military activities....No one could possibly know when the armistice was to be signed, or what hour be fixed for the cessation of hostilities so that the only thing for us to do, and which I did as commander in chief of the American forces, and which Marshal Foch did as commander in chief of the Allied armies was to continue the military activities....  General John J. Pershing Just days later, however, the congressman forwarded to Pershing a letter from a constituent with a cover note saying, "I have been deluged with questions on this subject." The enclosed letter had been written to Fuller by George K. Livermore, former operations officer of the 167th Field Artillery Brigade of the black 92nd Division, stating that that force had been engaged since 5 a.m. on November 11 and had been ordered to launch its final charge at 10:30 a.m. Livermore lamented "the little crosses over the graves of the colored lads who died a useless death on that November morning." He further described the loss of U.S. Marines killed crossing the Meuse River in the final hours as "frightful." Congressman Fuller closed his letter to Pershing asking for "a real frank, full answer to the question as to whether American lives were needlessly wasted." Fuller had Pershing's answer within the week, and it was categorical. By allowing the fighting to go forward, Pershing reiterated that he was simply following the orders of his superior, Marshal Ferdinand Foch, commander in chief of Allied forces in France, issued on November 9, to keep up the pressure against the retreating enemy until the cease-fire went into effect. Consequently, he had not ordered his army to stop fighting even after the signing of the armistice, of which, "I had no knowledge before 6 a.m. November 11." The possibility of an armistice had begun the evening of November 7 when French soldiers of the 171st Régiment d'Infanterie near Haudroy were startled by an unfamiliar bugle call. Fearing they were about to be overrun, they cautiously advanced toward the increasingly loud blaring when out of the mantle of fog three automobiles emerged, their sides gilded with the imperial German eagle. The astonished Frenchmen had encountered a German armistice delegation headed by a rotund forty-three-year-old politician and peace advocate named Matthias Erzberger. The delegation was escorted to the Compiègne Forest near Paris where, in a railroad dining car converted into a conference room, they were met by a small, erect figure--Marshal Foch--who fixed them with a withering gaze. Foch opened the proceeding with a question that left the Germans agape. "Ask these Gentlemen what they want," he said to his interpreter. When the Germans had recovered, Erzberger answered that they understood they had been sent to discuss armistice terms. Foch stunned them again: "Tell these gentlemen that I have no proposals to make."  During World War I, doughboys of the 28th Infantry Regiment crowd a trench in France. No proposals, perhaps, but he did have demands. Foch's interpreter read aloud the Allied conditions, which struck the Germans like hammer blows: All occupied lands in Belgium, Luxembourg, and France--plus Alsace-Lorraine, held since 1870 by Germany--were to be evacuated within fourteen days; the Allies were to occupy Germany west of the Rhine and bridgeheads on the river's east bank thirty kilometers deep; German forces had to be withdrawn from Austria-Hungary, Romania, and Turkey; Germany was to surrender to neutral or Allied ports 10 battleships, 6 battle cruisers, 8 cruisers, and 160 submarines. Germany was also to be stripped of heavy armaments, including 5,000 artillery pieces, 25,000 machine guns, and 2,000 airplanes. The next demand threw the German delegates into despair. Though the German people already faced starvation, the Allies intended to paralyze the enemy's transportation by continuing its naval blockade and confiscating 5,000 locomotives, 150,000 railway cars, and 5,000 trucks. The translator droned on through thirty-four conditions, the last of which blamed Germany for the war and demanded it pay reparations for all damage caused. Foch informed Erzberger that he had seventy-two hours to obtain the consent of his government to the Allies' terms, or the war would go on. On average, 2,250 troops on all sides were dying on the Western Front every day. "For God's sake, Monsieur le Marechal," Erzberger pleaded, "do not wait for those seventy-two hours. Stop the hostilities this very day." The appeal fell on deaf ears. Before the meeting, Foch had described to his staff his intention "to pursue the Feldgrauen [field grays, or German soldiers] with a sword at their backs" to the last minute until an armistice went into effect. To Pershing the very idea of an armistice was repugnant. "Their request is an acknowledgment of weakness and clearly means that the Allies are winning the war," he maintained. "Germany's desire is only to regain time to restore order among her forces, but she must be given no opportunity to recuperate and we must strike harder than ever." As for terms, Pershing had one response: "There can be no conclusion to this war until Germany is brought to her knees." The French and British Allies might be exhausted and long for peace, but Pershing saw his army akin to a fighter ready to deliver the knockout punch who is told to quit with his opponent reeling but still standing. Conciliation now, he claimed, would lead only to future war. He wanted Germany's unconditional surrender.  The Germans finally yielded and signed the armistice at 5:10 on the morning of the eleventh, backed up officially to 5 a.m. and to take effect within Foch's deadline: the eleventh month, eleventh day, eleventh hour of 1918. Pershing's postwar claim that he had had no official knowledge of the impending armistice before being informed by Foch's headquarters at 6 a.m. was disingenuous. The moment when the fighting would cease had been clear from the time Foch handed Erzberger the deadline, information to which Pershing was privy. On the evening of November 10 and through that night, news of the impending end was repeatedly affirmed from radio transmissions received at Pershing's AEF headquarters in Chaumont. After the general was apprised that the signing had taken place, the order going out from him merely informed subordinate commanders of that fact. It said nothing about what they should do until 11 o'clock, when the cease-fire would go into effect. His order left his commanders in a decisional no man's land as to whether to keep fighting or spare their men in the intervening hours. The generals left in that limbo fell roughly into two categories: ambitious careerists who saw a fast-fading opportunity for glory, victories, even promotions; and those who believed it mad to send men to their deaths to take ground that they could safely walk into within days. Congressman Fuller's mention of the loss of marines that final day referred to an action ordered by Maj. Gen. Charles P. Summerall, Pershing's commander of the V Corps. No doubt had clouded Summerall's mind as to how all this talk of an armistice on the eleventh should be treated. The day before he had gathered his senior officers and told them, "Rumors of enemy capitulation come from our successes." Consequently, this was no time to relax but rather to tighten the screws.
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Hey Sam.
I just finished putting multch down around the central AC unit to keep the weeds out. I put 6 verbena plants into a pot on the porch. My green beans now have 2 sets of leaves, and the cherry tomato plant has 3 blooms on it. It's still small I didn't expect blooms until about mid May.
free dixie HUGS,duckie/sw
From another thread, a discussion about whether or not America should hold Bill Clinton accountable for the multiple felonies he and his Administration have committed...
bayourod in bold
"...focus only on the question of whether Bill Clinton should be brought to trial. This was the great question when Nixon resigned and Ford pardoned him because he didn't think the nation should be put through the ordeal of a trial of Mr. Nixon."
First off, Nixon was never accused of committing a criminal offense vis a vis Watergate. Ford pardoned him, but there was never an actual law broken...I would argue that Clinton has committed multiple felonies that, if prosecuted, would have him in jail until the day he passed on to his Final Judgement.
"Some of the considerations should be:
1. How serious was the offense? Was it a technical violation such as comingling union contributions in hard money accounts; or was it a universally recognized crime such as murder of a potential witness?"
While I seriously believe Clinton has most likely conspired to have folks murdered, I've yet to see the concrete evidence; still, just because he's an ex-POTUS, should he be allowed to get away with rampant Abuse of Power, blatant Obstruction of Justice and Perjury, and making a mockery of our existing Campaign Finance Laws? I say no.
"2. What was the impact of the crime on the nation? Was the impact negligible like pardoning someone for going AWOL during World War II; or does the crime threaten the very existence of the country, such as selling China the secrets enabling them to destroy every major city in the nation?"
As the highest-ranking member of the Executive Branch, IMHO Clinton's crimes have done major damage to the legitimacy of our government, and thereby the "very existence of the country." How can a blatant abuser of our laws be allowed to go absolutely unpunished in a Land that claims that NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW?! Explain that to the teenager imprisoned for smoking a weed in his basement.
"3. How strong is the evidence? Is it circumstantial, relying on the testimony of dubious witnesses; or is there incontrovertable physical evidence such as video recordings and records written in Bill's hand?"
The arrogance Clinton has displayed in committing multiple felonies has resulted in a carelessness that will bear fruit in any SERIOUS investigation of his crimes. There are many, many people within his sphere of influence who know where the skeletons are buried, and they have likewise committed crimes in his service. As these underlings are brought to Justice and plead out, they will provide valuable testimony linking Clinton to any number of crimes that you and I may never even been aware of. And Clinton has been extremely sloppy in leaving documented proof of his guilt to be readily discovered by hungry investigators.
"4. Was the offense committed as an official act, such as selling seats on trade missions, or was it entirely separate from official duties, such as rape?"
SHEEESH, my FRiend, I cannot believe you actually believe this is a consideration. We are a Nation of Laws, and if those laws are legitimate enough to prosecute you or me for, why not some hayseed from Arkansas?
"5. Would prosecution cause bitter division among Americans because the offense is one that people hold strongly held opposite opinions on, such as lying about having sex because that's what gentlemen are taught to do; or one that everyone is in agreement on, such as using FBI files to blackmail elected officials?"
Once again, if folks are going to argue that the Laws are invalid, how come we don't see an uprising calling for said laws to be revoked, so that you and I cannot be held accountable for them, just like the ex-Most Powerful Man in the FReeWorld?!
"6. How would prosecution effect future policy. Would it create a public outcry for campaign finance reform that would result in destruction of our First Amendment rights and turn the government over to liberal Democrats? Would it appear to Democrat voters as petty vindictiveness on the part of Republicans that would result in such a backlash that Democrat Senators would be forced to reject confirmation of pro-life judges?"
Here, my FRiend, you are arguing political strategy. Fair enough, as that seems to be most FReepers' argument against holding the ex-First Felon accountable for his many crimes against this Nation. My response is that this is a very important time in our Country's history, as we are deciding whether or not We the Sheeple will sit idly by and allow Rampant Corruption to go on at the highest echelons of the Federal Guv'ment, and do absolutely NOTHING!! SHEEESH...Clinton's not a frickin' KING...he's no different than you or I!! Are LeftWing DemocRATS going to actually argue that a corrupt ex-POTUS should be allowed to get away with committing multiple felonies? If so, are the Sheeple going to go along meekly and support those same hopelessly-corrupt individuals in the next election? If so, we've already lost this Country, and we should readily expect to go the way of the once-great Roman Empire.
"Now to answer your question. I believe we elected a President who is of extremely high moral character who loves this country and is trying as hard as he can to do what he sincerely believes is best for our nation. I believe that he chose an honest, conscientious, competent Attorney General. I have complete confidence in their judgment and will support whatever decisions that they make."
Here, my FRiend, we are in complete agreement...however, I believe Dubyuh and Ashcroft need to hear from folks who "sincerely believe [what] is best for our nation" is that the Guilty--no matter how Powerful or allegedly popular--are brought to Justice!! Are we a Nation of Laws? Or are certain folks in this Country ABOVE the Laws that govern and restrict the rest of us?
Seriously, my fellow FReepers, am I just a Right-Wing Whacko for expecting the Laws of this Nation to apply to ALL Americans...even those who once held office at the highest echelons of our Federal Guv'ment?!
FReegards...MUD (07/14/2001)
Interesting. I have never understood that war.
Quite an emotionally charged read. Every time I've tried to formulate an opinion, I've clipped it as I have never served this great country. But I thank you Iris for #8 and Sam for #25.
IMHO, I know we all have our various schedules and time constraints but this thread merits the commentary from our experienced military minds/Vets that frequent the Foxhole.
I'm off to grill some Texas salmon steaks. Be back later . . .
Karate-Boy is now at the level where he will get to spar, so he has a set of pads. Bitty Girl swiped his helmet and has become Ninja Girl. This is the only hat she willingly wears.
Good work there P.E. and Mrs P.E.
Late Night Bump for the Freeper Foxhole Denizens
Regards
alfa6 ;>}
Way cool! Hobbit Lass got her gold/yellow belt last week.
I will only let her spar in class. I couldn't believe how rough they get at the meets. She is also very bad at sparring. She moves right into the punches.
Thank you kind sir.
We'll see how he does. He didn't believe me earlier. I asked him, "Do you know what this means?" He shook his head. I told him he'd be able to try to kick and punch people now! He thought I was nuts.
;-)
I'm off to grill some Texas salmon steaks.
Shaaaaring is such a wonderful thing.
Dinner tonight was a PETA burrito (no animals were harmed in the manufacting)
PETA burritos now with even MORE meat flavoring.
I have to go in to work early tommorrow (oh joy! /sarcasm)
So no On This Day In History :-(
Same for Monday.
Hi sweetie. You know, not everyone is called for service, some of us are called to stay home for other reasons. We all have a role and a purpose, even if we aren't sure what that is.
Like me, you are allowed an opinion just the same. After all, that's one of the reasons they fought, for our freedom. In turn, they have a right to tell me I'm all wrong, too! ;-)
All right! Congratulations Spiderboy. Cool camo belt.
Bittygirl's hat, lol, looks like spacegirl rather than ninjagirl.
Thanks for letting us know. I hope you're getting paid extra for this cruelty.
What a wonderful reminder and how beautifully put . . . "you are allowed an opinion just the same. After all, that's one of the reasons they fought, for our freedom."
Amen. I needed to hear that.
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