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The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - Kampfpanzer Leopard II - May 11th, 2004
The Armor Site ^ | Fabio Prado

Posted on 05/11/2004 12:00:14 AM PDT by SAMWolf



Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.


...................................................................................... ...........................................

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Kampfpanzer Leopard II
History


Leopard 2A6, with the new Rheinmetall 120mm L55 gun.
(Photo: Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH.)


The development of the Leopard 2 MBT can be traced back to a project started in the 1960's. At this time Germany and the United States were still working on the MBT-70 program, so this project had a very low priority.

While Germany and the United States were developing the MBT/KPz-70, their agreement did not allow a parallel national tank program, but when the Leopard 1 MBT was introduced into service in 1965 Porsche was awarded a contract to develop improved components to increase its combat effectiveness to the standard demanded by the MBT/KPz-70. This program lasted until 1967, when the contract expired, and became known as 'Vergoldeter Leopard' or 'Gilded Leopard'.

When the first cracks appeared in 1967 in the German/American cooperation program for joint development of the MBT/KPz-70, the German Ministry of Defense decided to continue and to increase the development of the 'Vergoldeter Leopard', which later became known as 'Keiler' (Wild Boar).


Leopard 2 prototypes, in different phases of development. A total of 17 prototypes were built, with differing suspension, turret, and armament.


Krauss-Maffei of Munich was chosen as the main contractor, with Porsche involved in the development of the chassis and Wegmann in that of the turret. In 1969 and 1970 two prototypes (ET 01 and ET 02), both powered by the 10 cylinder MB 872 engine, were built for further evaluation. In late 1969, with the end of the development program for the German/American tank, the German Office for Defense Technology and Procurement initiated a study to save at least the majority of the MBT/KPz-70 development program. This was an attempt to combine parts of the abandoned MBT/KPz-70 program with components of the experimental tank, and became known as 'Eiler' (Boar) but never reached prototype status.

In early 1970, the German Ministry of Defense recommended the development of the 'Vergoldeter Leopard' to be continued with the adoption of the MTU engine developed for the MBT/Kpz-70 in order to take advantage of the further experience that had already been acquired with it. Another seven vehicles were ordered, with Krauss-Maffei again chosen as the main contractor.


Leopard 2A6 side view, showing the full 130 cm increase in barrel length of the new 120mm L55 gun.
(Photo: Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH.)


The prototypes looked at first glance very much like the Leopard 1 A4, but with a wedge-shaped bow and an exhaust grille moved to the rear plate. The roadwheels came from the MBT/KPz-70, and the return rollers from the Leopard 1. The engine also came from the MBT/KPz-70, a 12 cylinder MTU MB-873 Ka-500 water-cooled multi-fuel four-stroke engine, together with its 20 kW generator, gearbox, air filters, and the cooling and braking systems, forming a compact group that could be easily replaced in 15 minutes. Ten of the seventeen turrets built were fitted with a 105 mm smooth bore gun while the remaining seven had a 120 mm smooth bore gun, both designed and produced by Rheinmetall. When the first analysis of the Yom Kippur War of 1973 became available, it became clear that increased armor protection would be a decisive factor in the future. The outcome was a decision of upgrade the Leopard 2 to MLC 60 (Military Loading Class 60 tons), which would allow increased armor, and to modify one of the turrets with a new multi-layer type of armor. This resulted in a breakthrough in the Leopard 2 program and the first step towards the Leopard 2 AV.

During 1973, negotiations began between the United States and Germany to standardize certain components of both nations main battle tanks of the eighties. As a result of this, by 1976 it was agreed to study how Leopard 2 could be modified to meet US performance and constraints. Based on the altered German and US military demands, Porsche, Krauss-Maffei, and Wegmann designed and built the Leopard 2 AV (Austere Version).


The Leopard 2 Austere Version prototype.


Modifications included the new multi-layered (much like the British developed "Chobham" armor, which consisted of layers of steel and ceramics) armor on the hull and a new turret with a less sophisticated fire control system. Two chassis and three turrets were built, and were ready in 1976. The first prototype had a turret with a Hughes fire control system and a L7A3 105 mm main gun. The second one was equipped with the same gun, but provisions were made to allow a quick adoption of the Rheinmetall 120 mm smooth bore main gun. The third turret had a German fire control system, including the EMES 13, and was to be used in the German test program. An additional turret was built and was identical as the third, but had the Rheinmetall 120 mm smooth bore main gun installed from the beginning.

The Leopard 2 AV was originally intended to be tested as the same time with the XM1, but the German modification program took longer than expected. The US Army therefore proceeded with the evaluation of the XM1 prototypes built by Chrysler and General Motors, and ultimately decided to launch full-scale development of the Chrysler design.


Leopard 2 Austere Version prototype - this photo shows clearly the new armor added to the front hull.


However, the German prototypes arrived in the US by the end of August 1976 and comparative tests between the Leopard 2 AV and the XM1 prototypes were done at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, lasting until December 1976. The US Army reported that the Leopard 2 AV and the XM1 were comparable in firepower and field mobility but the XM1 was superior in armor protection, and so the XM1 was selected. After the comparative test the Leopard 2 AV prototypes were returned to Germany for further evaluation tests.

In September 1977 the German MoD formally decided to go ahead with plans for production of 1,800 Leopard 2, which were to be delivered in five batches. From the original group of companies bidding for the contract, Krauss-Maffei was chosen as the main contractor and systems manager. MaK became sub contractor and production was to be shared between the two companies on the basis of 55% for Krauss-Maffei and 45% for MaK. Wegmann, as turret integrator, received full responsibility for coordination the integration of the EMES 15 fire control. The EMES 15 fire control was developed by Hughes in cooperation between Krupp Atlas Elektronik, with the 120 mm smooth bore high-performance main gun supplied by Rheinmetall with the turret.

Without doubt, at the time of its introduction (1979), the Leopard 2 was the most advanced tank in the world. The Germans succeeded in designing a tank with high success in all three areas of tank design: mobility, firepower, and armor protection.

Until then, tank designers had only been able to achieve two of these objectives at once. The British Chieftain, for instance, had a pretty good gun and good armor, but very poor mobility. At the other end of the scale was the French AMX-30, which had good mobility, an adequate gun, but weak armor.

SERIES PRODUCTION



The Leopard 2 was the most advanced tank in the world back in 1979/80. The Germans have suceeded in designing a tank with high success in all three areas of tank design: mobility, firepower, and armor protection. The tank above is from the first production batch.


A total of 380 Leopard 2 were built in the first batch, 209 by Krauss-Maffei and 171 by MaK, with the first six delivered in 1979 to Kampftruppenschule 2 in Münster. Another 100 were delivered in 1980 and 229 in 1981, replacing the M48A2G in units among I (GE) Corps. The first Leopard 2 went to Panzerbattalions 31, 33 and 34 of 1 Panzerdivision, with partially parallel delivery to Panzerbattalions 81, 85 and 84 of 5 Panzerdivision. The Leopard 1s then in service were passed to the Panzerbattalions of the Panzergrenadier Divisions, were they replaced the M48A2G. By 1982 production was running at 300 a year, with the last first batch Leopard 2 delivered in March of that year.

The combat weight of the Leopard 2 is 55,000 kg, empty weight being 52,000 kg, and its hull has spaced multi-layer armor. The running gear consists of seven dual rubber-tyred road wheels and four return rollers per side, with the idler wheel at the front and drive sprocket at the rear.

Torsion bar suspension is employed, with advanced friction dampers provided. The Diehl 570F tracks, with rubber-bashed end connectors, have removable rubber pads and use 82 links on each track. For use in icy ground, up to 18 rubber pads can be replaced by the same number of grousers, which are stored in the vehicle's bow when not in use. The first four sessions of the side skirts are heavily armored, and must be raised for rail transport. The remaining sessions are made of standard rubber and metal fabric and are hinged to swing upward if neccessary.


A Leopard 2 of the Bundesheer (Austrian Army) in maneuvers. © Photo/Bundesheer.


The driver's station is located at the front, offset to the right of the vehicle's center line. A large, pintle-mounted lift-and-swing type hatch is provided for the driver and opens to the right. There are two observation periscopes in the driver's hatch, plus one to the left of his section, for use when driving closed down. The central periscope (in the hatch) can be exchanged for a passive IR-sight for night operations. An escape hatch is provided under the driver's seat.

The turret, incorporating multi layer armor, is mounted in the center of the hull and is manned by the commander and gunner in the right half, with the loader in the left half. The commander and the loader each have a circular hatch, opening to the rear, and six periscopes provide all-round vision for the commander. Both hatches have ring mounts for the 7.62 mm MG-3 air defense machine gun, though it is normally installed on the loader's hatch.


Leopard 2, first batch production series. The first batch was delivered from 1979-1982. The first 200 tanks built originally had the PZB 200 image intensifier mounted over the mantlet, the thermal imager being not yet available. The first batch was also the only batch to have a wind sensor installed on the turret.


The 120 mm Rheinmetall main gun is fully stabilized in both azimuth and elevation, and the WNA-H22 electro-hidraulic gun control system is fitted. The gun fires two types of ammunition, both developed by Rheinmetall APFSDS-T, known as DM-33 KE (Kinetische Energy), and HEAT-MP-T, known as DM-12 MZ (Mehrzweck = multipurpose), both types having combustible cases. 27 rounds of 120 mm ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station - additional 15 (making a total of 42) are stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door. Should the ammunition in the bustle be hit, blow-off panels in the turret roof would direct any explosion upwards. A co-axial 7.620mm MG 3is mounted to the left of the main gun and 4,750 rounds of machine gun ammunition are carried.

The thermal sight for the gunner's EMES 15 primary sight was not ready during production of the first batch, though all vehicles were prepared to be so equipped at a later stage. To provide an improvised night fighting capability for first batch vehicles, the Panzer-Ziel-und-Beobachtungsgerät (PZB) 200ow light TV system (LLLTV) was temporarily fitted to 200 Leopard 2 The EMES 15/FLT-2 fire control system consists of:

  • gunner's primary sight with mirror stabilized in azimuth and elevation
  • laser transmitter and receiver
  • thermal imaging system and eye piece assembly
  • commander's and gunner's control units
  • commander's display unit
  • computer control unit
  • commander's joy-stick hand control
  • digital ballistic computer, which calculates the relevant data for a firing solution
  • cross wind velocity sensor (first batch only)
  • gun elevation sensor
  • laser electronics box
  • cant angle sensor
  • interconnecting cable set

The gunner also has an auxiliary telescope FERO-Z18 with a magnification of x8, mounted co-axially to the right of the main gun. An independent and fully stabilized PERI R-17 primary panoramic sight, made by Carl Zeiss and with magnifications of x2 and x8, is installed at the front of the commander's station. This sight can be traversed through 360 degrees and allows the commander to override the gunner's control if necessary. An ammunition supply hatch opening outward, is provided in the left side of the turret side. Two groups of four 76 mm Wegmann smoke mortars are mounted on either side of the turret and can be electrically fired either as single rounds or in salvos of four. Two SEM 25/SEM35 radio sets are fitted behind the commander in the rear right of the turret bustle. The radio antennae are mounted to the left and right behind crew stations.

The engine compartment is at the rear, separated from the fighting compartment by a fireproof bulkhead. The MTU MB 873 Ka-501 liquid-cooled 47.6 litre V-12 cylinder 4-stroke exhaust turbo-charged diesel engine develops 1,104 kW (1,500 PS) at 2,600 rpm. It is started by eight 12-volt/125 Ab batteries and has a 24-volt electrical system. The Leopard 2 maximum road speed is 68 km/h, though it is limited to 50km/h during peacetime, and top reverse is 31 km/h.


Thanks Archy :-)


Fuel consumption is estimated at around 300 litres per 100 km on roads and 500 litres per 100 km across country. The four fuel tanks have a total capacity of approximately 1,160 litres, giving a maximum road range of about 500 km. The Renk HSWL 354 hydro-kinetic planetary gearbox with integral service brake is coupled to the engine, forming a compact power pack which can be exchanged within 15 minutes. Four forward and two reverse gears are available through a torque converter, enabling the Leopard 2 to turn on the spot if required. The transmission automatically changes gear within the range pre-selected by the driver. The cooling air outlet grille is very prominent across the upper section of the rear plate, and was reinforced after the 28th vehicle built. Exhaust grilles with vertical bars are located to the left and right of the de-airation vents. A fault detection system detects any technical malfunctions.

Four 9 kg Halon fire extinguisher bottles are installed on the right behind the driver's station. The bottles are connected to pipes and hoses and are activated automatically by the fire detection system, when temperatures rise above 180° F inside the fighting compartment, or manually via a control panel in the driver's compartment. An extra 2.5 kg Halon fire extinguisher (HAL 2.5) is stored on the floor beneath the main gun. The Leopard 2 has a self-contained NBC protection system, which produces up to 4 mbar (0.004 kp/cm²) over pressure inside the vehicle.

The Leopard 2 is able to ford water obstacles 1.20 m deep (wading) without any preparation, and to ford at a depth of 2.25 m (deep wading) with special preparation. About 15 minutes preparation is required to get the tank ready for crossing water obstacles at a depth of 4 ma (underwater driving), including the fitting of a special three-piece snorkel to the commander's cupola.


The Leopard 2A1.


Production of the second batch began in March 1982 and ended in November 1983. Of the 450 vehicles built, 248 were built by Krauss-Maffei and 202 by MaK. The most significant changes were the deletion of the cross wind velocity sensor, and that the protection over the optical blocks at the commander's station was now faceted shape. The tank thermal sight, based on the common modules provided by Texas Instruments and built by Carl Zeiss, was now fitted to the gunner's EMES 15 primary sight and the gun control system was included in the fault detection system. The fuel filters were repositioned, considerably reducing the time required for refuelling. An external head-set connection was added to the left rear of the turret side. The racks of ammunition stowage were identical to those that were to be fitted to the M1A1 Abrams. Two foot boards were attached to the power pack, thus avoiding damage to the steering system and the electrical wiring and plugs during maintenance with the deck removed. The tow cable clamps on the rear deck were repositioned and the cables, now 5 m long, were crossed on the rear plate. Due to these numerous changes, this version was designated the Leopard 2 A1 .


Leopard 2A3, Panzerbattalion 123, Panzerbrigade 12, October 1990.


The 300 Leopard 2 of the third batch were built between november 1983 and November 1984, 165 by Krauss-Maffei, and the remaining 133 by Mak. The most notable changes were the addition of a deflector, which raised the position of the commander's PERI R-17 primary panoramic sight by 50 mm, and a larger cover plate fitted on top of the NBC protection system. These modifications were subsequently also carried out to the second batch vehicles. The third batch vehicles were also designated Leopard 2 A1.

The fourth batch was built between December 1984 and December 1985. Of the 300 vehicles delivered, 165 were built by Krauss-Maffei, and 135 by MaK. The most significant changes were the installation of new digital SEM 80/90 VHF radios and revised exhaust grilles with circular bars. The ammunition supply hatches were welded shut (risk of leaking if turret was hit). The vehicles of this batch were designated the Leopard 2 A3 .


Leopard 2A4 (seventh batch), Panzerbattalion 214, 7.Panzerdivision, CMTC Hohenfels, December 1995.


Between December 1985 and March 1987, 370 vehicles were delivered, with 190 being built by Krauss-Maffei, and the remaining 180 by MaK. In this batch, the fire control was fitted with a digital core to facilitate the use of new ammunition, and to improve the crew's survivability a fire and explosion suppression system developed by Deugra was installed. The return rollers were repositioned. The turret protection level was increased to more than 700mm for KE and 1000mm for HEAT. The vehicles of this batch were designated Leopard 2 A4 .

Although only five batches were originally intended to be built, an order for a sixth batch of 150 vehicles was placed in june 1987, and 83 were built by Krauss-Maffei and 67 by MaK, between January 1988 and May 1989. New features in this batch were the installation of maintenance-free batteries, the introduction of Diehl 570FT tracks, and the use of zinc cromate free paint. The central warning light was now installed in a small housing on the hull, in front of the driver's station, for better observation by the driver when driving head-out.The ammunition supply hatch in the left side of the turret was deleted. The vehicles of this batch were also designated Leopard 2 A4 .

Production of 100 seventh batch vehicles began in May 1989 and ended in April 1990, with 55 built by Krauss-Maffei and 45 by MaK. The vehicles of this batch were identical to the late sixth batch vehicles and also called Leopard 2 A4 .


Leopard 2A4 of Panzerbattalion 393, December 1995. CMTC Hohenfels.


Between January 1991 and March 1992 75 vehicles were delivered, with 40 built by Krauss-Maffei and 34 by MaK. Changes included slight modifications of the base mounts for the smoke mortars, and later on a collimator for the muzzle reference system was fitted to the right side of the 120 mm main gun, near the barrel's end, and was subsequently retrofitted to the vehicles of previous batches. The muzzle reference system allows a quick check for the gunner of the distortion of the gun barrel in relation to the sight optics. The vehicles of this batch were also designated Leopard 2 A4 .

The final Leopard 2 A4 of the eight batch was delivered to the Gebirgs-Panzerbattalion 8 (Mountain Tank Battalion) on 19 March 1992, in a official ceremony in Munich.

After delivery of the last eight batch vehicle, there were 2.125 Leopard 2 A4 in service with the Bundeswehr. The Leopard 2 was designed to meet the requirements of modern mobile combat to counter the Soviet threat to Central Europe. It used the most advanced technologies available at the time, to achieve enhanced performance, with optimal results in the combination of armor protection, firepower, and mobility; which placed it among the leaders in modern tank design.



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: armor; freeperfoxhole; germany; leopard2; tanks; treadhead; veterans
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To: Darksheare; SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; All
Important announcement over here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1130003/posts?page=1496#1496

If it's already posted on the Foxhole, I missed it.
101 posted on 05/11/2004 8:23:55 PM PDT by Samwise (Kerry: Don't criticize me or my wife or I'll whine.)
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To: Matthew Paul
we're losing this war... :-(

I know sometimes it seem that way. Especially on days like today, but we're not losing. We just had a bad day, as the President keeps saying this is going to be a long war, and we'll have good days and bad(like today) but the only way we lose is if we lose heart.

IRAQ THE MODEL
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Old soldier in a new army.
A relative of mine was forced as the millions of Iraqis to serve in Saddam’s army. He was poor and peaceful and couldn’t stand the humiliation and the torture that service meant. He lived in Baghdad and served in Basrah.
(snip)
When I saw my relative, and despite the nature of the occasion, I felt happy. Here’s a free man. I smiled as I said, “you must be very happy to be free again, and not fear the MP”. He said, "you can’t imagine! It’s like being born again. I’ve never felt so free before”. “But what are you doing for a living now? I hope you’ve found a job”. I asked. He smiled as he said, "I volunteered in the new army". “Really! I thought you’d never wear a uniform after that terrible experience” he replied "Oh no, this is entirely different". I said, “ I'm sure it is, but who convinced you to do so!? And when did that happen?” "A friend of mine who volunteered before I did told me some nice stuff that encouraged me to do the same, so I volunteered about a couple of months ago". He replied. “So tell me about it, are you happy with this job?” I asked. "You can’t imagine! It’s nothing that we’ve learned or knew about the military life". He answered. “I expected it to be so, but can you tell me about it” I asked and I didn’t have to ask anymore, as my relative started talking excitedly without a stop.
(snip)
The most important thing is that this army has no retards or illiterate in it like the old one. Now education is an essential requirement when applying to serve in the new army and anyone who hasn’t finished high school at least has no place there. In fact most of the volunteers are college and technical institutes graduates.
(snip)
"you can’t imagine how much valued we are and how much our religion and traditions are respected. When we pass by a mosque, the officer in charge shouts “no talk” until we pass the mosque by a considerable distance, and when one of the officers enters our hall, if he sees that one of us is praying he remains silent and order us to keep quite until our comrade finishes his prayer.

For the first time in my life, I feel I’m somebody. I’m not a trash as Saddam and his gang tried to make me believe”
(snip)
“I feel I’m somebody now. I’m respected and get all what most people get. Do you believe that they threw one of the Iraqi officers out of the army because he used us to do him personal services, like carrying his bags, and when we complained about his behavior, they told him “ Do you see any of us, American officers use our soldiers? You can go home. You still have the mentality of the old regime and you can’t fit in this new army!” imagine that! They listen to our complains, we the soldiers, and bring us justice even if it involved the higher ranked officers. This had never happened in the old army.”
102 posted on 05/11/2004 8:38:45 PM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
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To: w_over_w
Evening w_over_w

Tell me something? Can a Bergepanzer 3 'Bueffel' (Buffalo) ARV lift the Senior, "bloviating zepplin", cowardly murderer from the state of Massachusetts?

From the last pictures I saw of him you might need two. Between him and Levin I think we've identified the "enemy within".

103 posted on 05/11/2004 8:43:37 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Ted Kennedy views Abu Ghraib Prison video - Mistakes them for his last family reunion home movie.)
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To: SAMWolf
Between him and Levin I think we've identified the "enemy within".

You once made a lighthearted comment "it's all in the marketing". These enemies within need to be marketed and exposed for what they are . . . power mongerers that would piss on the mother's grave if it scored political points for their party.

104 posted on 05/11/2004 8:48:16 PM PDT by w_over_w (How long would it take the DemonRats to lose the war on terror? Got an egg-timer?)
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To: Samwise; snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo; Darksheare; bentfeather; colorado tanker; Matthew Paul; ...
Thanks Samwise!! Great news!!

Congratulations to the Happy Couple and Welcome to Baby Abigail!

Hobbit Hole Priority Update!!!



Abigail Elizabeth Ann

Daughter of Professional Engineer and msdrby

Was Born at 4:15 PM today May 11, 2004

She weighs 9 pounds 5 ounces and had a head full of light brown hair with some elvish blonde highlights! msdrby is in recovery.

Baby Abigail is wonderful.

Spiderboy and Grama have viewed baby Abigail through the nursery window and are tickled pink!

PE spent about an hour in the nursery holding baby Abigail before he called in his report and still may faint! :-)



105 posted on 05/11/2004 8:51:11 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Ted Kennedy views Abu Ghraib Prison video - Mistakes them for his last family reunion home movie.)
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To: SAMWolf; Professional Engineer
Baby Abigail is wonderful

Well OF COURSE she is! Breeding will tell!

Professional Engineer, one word SLEEP, stock up on it!:-)







We will demand pictures.
/subtle hint
106 posted on 05/11/2004 8:58:43 PM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
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To: colorado tanker
...the French kept surrendering to the sample model.

LOL. Thanks ct, I needed this laugh today. Such a sad, frustrating day today, getting so fed up and angry with the media, the fact that we aren't blowing away the enemy, the loss of our troops and the brutal murder of an American by the islamic fanatics. And that's just a portion of my frustration. Kerry is another to add to the pile.

107 posted on 05/11/2004 8:59:35 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Darksheare
Good night Dark.
108 posted on 05/11/2004 9:00:20 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Professional Engineer; msdrby
Congratulations on your new arrival
~Abigail Elizabeth Ann~

109 posted on 05/11/2004 9:00:53 PM PDT by Soaring Feather (~The Dragon Flies' Lair~ Poetry and Prose~)
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To: w_over_w
My faith is being seriously challenged today.

Naw, I'll bet the Good Lord understands our anger these days. I'm with you!

110 posted on 05/11/2004 9:01:41 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Snippy, do you know what time it is here??? It's tomorrow. LOL
111 posted on 05/11/2004 9:02:08 PM PDT by Soaring Feather (~The Dragon Flies' Lair~ Poetry and Prose~)
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To: snippy_about_it
Naw, I'll bet the Good Lord understands our anger these days.

Amen . . . young lady.

112 posted on 05/11/2004 9:18:46 PM PDT by w_over_w (How long would it take the DemonRats to lose the war on terror? Got an egg-timer?)
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To: SAMWolf; msdrby; Professional Engineer; bentfeather; All

113 posted on 05/11/2004 9:36:00 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: bentfeather
It's still today here. LOL. I keep telling Sam not to stay up until midnight to post, most of y'all are asleep!
114 posted on 05/11/2004 9:36:49 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
I keep telling Sam not to stay up until midnight to post, most of y'all are asleep!

Good advice! I think I'll take it.
115 posted on 05/11/2004 9:54:58 PM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; msdrby; Professional Engineer
Talk about ample blessings: three names--Abigail is classic and my mom was Elizabeth Anne.

Welcome kindersupertruppen Abigail Elizabeth Ann

116 posted on 05/11/2004 9:59:00 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: Valin
Good night Valin.
117 posted on 05/11/2004 10:17:11 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: PhilDragoo
kindersupertruppen

LOL. Cute!

118 posted on 05/11/2004 10:18:09 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: w_over_w
;-)
119 posted on 05/11/2004 10:19:08 PM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: w_over_w
Snippy and I were tlking about this and we honestly believe they'd rather see America fall than be out of power. They sure act like it.
120 posted on 05/11/2004 10:22:06 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Ted Kennedy views Abu Ghraib Prison video - Mistakes them for his last family reunion home movie.)
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