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The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - Sturmgeschutz (Assault Guns) - Apr. 13th, 2004
www.wargamer.com ^
Posted on 04/13/2004 12:00:40 AM PDT by SAMWolf
Lord,
Keep our Troops forever in Your care
Give them victory over the enemy...
Grant them a safe and swift return...
Bless those who mourn the lost. .
FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer for all those serving their country at this time.
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U.S. Military History, Current Events and Veterans Issues
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Our Mission: The FReeper Foxhole is dedicated to Veterans of our Nation's military forces and to others who are affected in their relationships with Veterans. In the FReeper Foxhole, Veterans or their family members should feel free to address their specific circumstances or whatever issues concern them in an atmosphere of peace, understanding, brotherhood and support. The FReeper Foxhole hopes to share with it's readers an open forum where we can learn about and discuss military history, military news and other topics of concern or interest to our readers be they Veteran's, Current Duty or anyone interested in what we have to offer. If the Foxhole makes someone appreciate, even a little, what others have sacrificed for us, then it has accomplished one of it's missions. We hope the Foxhole in some small way helps us to remember and honor those who came before us.
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Sturmgeschutz StuG III, StuH and StuG IV
In view of their experiences in WW I the German Army demanded some mobile form of armored artillery which could accompany and support the infantry. The vehicle should be able to eliminate strong points and other obstacles by direct fire, notably during the period in a battle when the conventional supporting artillery was otherwise engaged or could not be brought into action due to moving up. The vehicle should be armed with a 77mm gun on a maneuverable fully-tracked vehicle, with vehicle and weapon partly protected by armor. These attempts were halted in 1932 because other plans for motorizing the Army seemed more pressing.
A prototype vehicle of the "O" series with two round access hatches in the nose
A memorandum submitted in 1935 to General Beck, the Chief of General Staff, by Colonel Erich von Manstein, suggested to revive the concept of the infantry Begleitbatterien (escort batteries). He indicated the need for an armored self-propelled gun to work under infantry control, the tactical employment and the nature of the weapon itself: "Assault artillery fights as escort artillery within the framework of the infantry. It does not attack like the tank, does not break through, but carries the attack of the infantry forward by quickly eliminating the most dangerous objectives through direct fire. It does not fight in large numbers like the tank units, but is normally employed at platoon strength. The platoon, or even the individual gun, makes a surprise appearance in and then quickly vanishes before it can become a target for enemy artillery. The gun must be able to take enemy machinegun emplacements out of action with a few rounds. It must also be able to knock out enemy tanks; in comparison to them it has inferior armor, but a superior ability to observe and shoot first."
A StuG III Ausf. A in Holland, 1940, with the initial drive sprocket and rear idler
Five prototype vehicles were built in 1937, mounting the same short-barreled 75mm L/24 howitzer fitted to the PzKpfw IV in a limited traverse mounting on the modified chassis of the PzKpfw III Ausf. B. Constructed of soft steel, these vehicles of the "O" series were unsuitable for combat but helped developing the initial production version, the StuG III Ausf. A. The nomenclature adopted was a blend of the parent tank and the gun which was mounted (e.g. StuG III mit 7.5cm Kanone, implying a modified PzKpfw III chassis with a 75mm gun). The chassis nose plates, gun mantlet and frontal armor of the superstructure were 50mm thick, which was sufficient protection against the antitank guns of that time. The gunner's sight required a small opening in the front plate, and the fan-shaped cutout in front of the opening had bullet deflectors to deflect bullets and fragments. Production started in 1940 and 30 vehicles were made before the campaign in the west in 1940. They performed successfully in Holland and France, destroying pill-boxes, machinegun nests and antitank guns.
A StuG III Ausf B with old drive sprocket and rear idler
The assault guns were crewed by artillerymen, since the infantry had difficulties with the necessary technical and logistic infrastructure to maintain the guns in the field, while the Panzertruppen were afraid of interference with tank production. The crew consisted of the commander (called a Geschützführer, or gun leader), a loader, the gunner and a driver. Their uniforms, although cut in the style of the Panzerbesatzungen (tank crews), were German fieldgrey, not black. Their branch colour was the red of the artillery. During initial gunnery trials the assault gun crews performed better than their tank counterparts, being quicker onto the target and using less ammunition to destroy it.
A StuG III Ausf B with wider tracks
In the autumn of 1940 an improved chassis with replaced transmission and engine resulted in the Ausf. B. During production of the Ausf. B the 36cm wide track was replaced by a 40cm wide track, making it necessary to fit new drive sprockets and rear idlers. Early 1941 the Ausf. C was introduced, later followed by the Ausf. D which had some internal changes. The Ausf. C and D had an altered superstructure with a single or binocular gunner's sight now mounted in the roof, eliminating the weak point in the frontal armor. The front, side and driver's roof plates were improved to a more effective shape.
StuG III Ausf. D of StuG Abt. 189
Introduced one year after the Ausf. B, the last short-barreled version was the Ausf. E which had an altered superstructure. This version was to be used as a command vehicle as the SdKfz 253 observation vehicle was no longer included with the StuG units. The angled side plates were removed, and a second armored pannier box was placed on the right side, while the left pannier was lengthened. These boxes contained extra radio equipment and extra ammunition rounds. A command vehicle mounting the additional radios can be identified by the two whip antennas on the back of the superstructure.
Ausf. E with vertical side wall
Of the short-barreled StuG III Ausf. B, C, D and E, 320, 50, 150 and 272 were made, respectively. The StuG III was the most common Sturmgeschütz design, being little more than a tank with a fixed gun of limited traverse instead of a turret. It was slower and less maneuverable than a tank but was suited particularly well for attacking enemy infantry, heavy weapons and main points of restistance. The vehicle was found to be easier to use from concealed positions because of its lower silhouette. It was less complex, less expensive to build and had almost the same performance as a tank, and for this reason the manufacture of assault guns increased until more were being made than tanks. For the hard-fighting infantry, the Sturmgeschütz were often the last rescue in an emergency while confronting increasing numbers of enemy units.
A StuG III Ausf. G unit fitted with Saukopf gun mantlets -note the drawings on the mantlets resembling boars
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TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: armor; assaultguns; freeperfoxhole; germany; stugiii; stugiv; stuh; sturmgeschutz; tanks; treadhead; veterans; wwii
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Late version Ausf. G with cupola protection
By the end of 1941 it became obvious that the infantry needed better guns than the short-barreled L/42 to defend themselves against enemy tanks. The Russian T34 and KV1 were superior to any German tank, but due to the low silhouette and thick frontal armor the StuG turned out to be an effective tank destroyer. The superior enemy tanks made it necessary to replace the gun of the PzKpfw IV by the 75mm KwK 40 L/43. Like the PzKpfw IV, the short-barreled 75mm of the StuG was also replaced by a similar long-barreled 75mm L/43. The fast battles on the Russian front, with their gradual shift to the defensive, eventually led to the development of the StuG as an effective antitank weapon. Its role was no longer attacking to rapidly advance, bur rather defence through counter-attacks. The main battle tank lost out in favor of the Sturmgeschütz as tank destroyer, which became also displayed in the production numbers.
Ausf F/8 fitted with single-chamber muzzle brakes on L/48 guns
The Ausf. F had a raised centre roof at the rear with an electronic ventilator fan, and the initial vehicles were armed with the L/43 gun. A change in the chassis design resulted in an altered engine deck, and a larger gun was fitted, the 75mm L/48. These vehicles were designated ausf. F/8 as their chassis was based on the PzKpfw III Ausf. J (8/ZW). Aditional armor was added to the front, and protection was often improved in the field by filling the frontal roof sections on both sides of the gun. The folding radio antennas were replaced with antennas with fixed mounts, The StuG did not originally have a machine gun to defend against infantry, but from F/8 vehicles onward a MG 34 or 42 in front of the loader's hatch was installed.
The loader had a machine gun available mounted behind a folding protective shield
Combat experience led to the final version of the StuG III, the Ausf. G, which appeared early in 1943. Front plates of the superstructure and the chassis increased to 80mm, often by addition of bolted 30mm plates. A cupola was installed for the commander, including 8 episcopes and a smaller hatch for the binocular scopes. The ventilator fan moved to the centre of the rear vertical wall of the fighting compartment. The Ausf. G underwent many modifications in the field, including the addition of side skirts for protection against antitank rifles and high explosive shells, and the addition of the antimagnetic cement or Zimmerit to sloped and vertical armored surfaces. Often a "waffle" pattern was applied in contrast to the vertical line pattern used by the PzKpfw IV and VI.
A StuG III Ausf F/8 in Tunisia with a framework for spare tracks on the rear deck
The raised commander's cupola turned out to be a weak spot, and the crew increased protection by adding track sections around the cupola. Later versions of the Ausf. G had a sloping shot deflector welded in front of the cupola. In 1944 a new gun mantlet was fitted, known as the "Saukopf" (pig head) to the soldiers due to the shot-deflecting gun mantlet's form. The loader's roof hatches opened now to the sides, and a remote controlled mount for the roof machinegun was installed
A StuG III of "Grossdeutschland" Division has been disabled by an antitank mine
Sturmgeschütz units were organic to the Artillery, and were not organized in compagnies, but into separate abteilungen (battalions). Many of these battalions were integrated into Panzer Divisions and into Panzer grenadier Divisions. In some cases StuGs equipped the divisional tank battalions because tanks were not available for every unit. Since the StuG was considered as artillery, they were not under the direct command of the Panzertruppe, even though the StuG III was one of the most heavily armored vehicles available. Only Waffen SS and elite Wehrmacht divisions had StuG brigades as permanent part of their divisions. In 1943, the assault gun battalions were redesigned as assault gun brigades (StuG Brigade).
StuG III Ausf.G with "Saukopf" mantlet
1
posted on
04/13/2004 12:00:41 AM PDT
by
SAMWolf
To: snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo; Johnny Gage; Victoria Delsoul; Darksheare; Valin; bentfeather; radu; ..
StuG IV of the 17th SS Panzergrenadier division in Normandy, July 1944
Since the later versions of the StuG III with the long-barreled 75mm L/48 were mostly used in an antitank role, more armored artillery-vehicles were needed to support the infantry against soft and hidden targets. Therefor a new vehicle based on the StuG III Ausf. F was designed, mounting the 105mm F.H. 18 howitzer. This version of the StuG was designated Sturmhaubitze (StuH 42) and saw its first action in November 1942. Later versions were based on the StuG Ausf. G and had a larger barrel fitted with a double-baffle muzzle brake. A "Saukopf" gun mantlet was also installed as seen with the late StuG Ausf. G, although with an increased size.
105mm StuH 42 Sturmhaubitze Ausf G
The StuH had the usual characteristics of the StuG but was confined to a purely anti-personnel role and did not fire armor-piercing ammunition. Like most howitzers, however, it was supplied with hollow-charge ammunition to give it some anti-armor performance. A ratio of 7 StuG to 3 StuH vehicles in each Battery was viewed as correct, but seldom possible.
StuH in the final days of the war
From 1943 onwards the German Army was pressed into the defence, conducting only small counter-attacks and defensive battles. The main battle tanks lost out in favor of the tank destroyers, which became evident in the production numbers. The chassis of the PzKpfw IV was now also used to produce tank destroyers like the Jagdpanzer IV and the StuG IV.
Production of the StuG III was delayed in 1943 due to Allied bombing, and production capacity was continued partly by the firm Krupp which resulted in the StuG IV, which was the combination of the StuG III with the chassis of the PzKpfw IV. The two standard tanks of the Wehrmacht, the PzKpfw III and PzKpfw IV, were quite similar in external measurements and combat weight. The only essential difference could be found in the layout of the running gear. The PzKpfw III had a modern torsion bar suspension, the PzKpfw IV had a outdated but easily repairable leaf spring suspension. From december 1943 to march 1945, more than 1100 StuG IV were produced by Krupp.
Old model Sturmgeschütz IV
Although being designed as a support vehicle, the StuG played its major role as a tank destroyer. By the spring of 1944, the StuG units were credited with the destruction of 20.000 Russian tanks, a number which only increased later during the war while fighting defending battles on different fronts. As exampled by an after-action report from Panzerjager-Kompanie 1045 with StuG III in the Nachrichtenblatt der Panzertruppen, December 1944:
"The company was prepared as divisional reserves. The enemy attacked one morning after a half-hour pummeling of artillery preparatory fire with heavy air support, and about 30 T34 tanks and mechanized infantry deployed on a wide front. The enemy tried to force a breakthrough with portions of 5 or 6 divisions. The terrain was unusually favorable for the enemy. Above all, the forested areas provided him with suitable firing positions and assembly areas.
Sturmgeschütz IV produced by Krupp
The company went into action with 9 Sturmgeschütz, and on the first day was able to knock-out or destroy the following within three hours:
16 T34, 2 mortars, 1 KVI, 2 observation points with radio, 2 T34(immobile), 1 anti-tank gun, 17 machine guns, 1 infantry gun
On the second day:
2 T34, 3 anti-tank weapons, 1 self-propelled gun, 2 grenade launchers, 21 machine guns, 2 anti-tank guns
The tanks were knocked-out at ranges of 600-800 meters. In a period of 15 minutes, one StuG was able to hit five tanks out of a column. The enemy didn't fire a single aimed round. The remaining T34 tanks were individually hunted down. One T34 was knocked out at a range of 1000 meters with 3 rounds."
Additional Sources: www.elknet.net/pzrldr
2
posted on
04/13/2004 12:01:18 AM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(A cat will assume the shape of the container it is packed into.)
To: All
Weight |
23.9 tons |
Crew |
4 |
Weapons |
75mm L48 StuK40 gun with 54 rounds, 1 7.92mm MG 34 with 600 rounds |
Armor |
hull 80mm (nose 80mm, front 50mm+30mm, sides and rear 30mm, top 16mm, bottom 16mm); |
Engine |
300hp gasoline Maybach HL 120 TRM, 12-cylinders on V, liquid cooled |
Speed |
40Km/h |
Range |
155Km |
Length (max) |
6.77m |
Width |
2.95m |
Height |
2.16m |
|
Advantages: large variety of configurations, mechanical reliability due to highly experienced chassis, low profile
Disadvantages: fixed gun limited the tactical manouver
'Anti-tank defence will devolve more and more on the assault guns, since all our other anti-tank weapons are becoming increasingly ineffective against the new enemy equipment. All divisions on the main battlefronts, therefore, need to be supplied with a certain complement of these weapons; the secondary fronts will have to make do with a higher command reserve of assault guns. In order to economise on personnel and material, a gradual amalgamation of the assault gun battalions and tank destroyer battalions is necessary. ' General Heinz Guderian, in his book Panzer Leader |
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3
posted on
04/13/2004 12:01:40 AM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(A cat will assume the shape of the container it is packed into.)
To: All
4
posted on
04/13/2004 12:02:04 AM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(A cat will assume the shape of the container it is packed into.)
To: CarolinaScout; Tax-chick; Don W; Poundstone; Wumpus Hunter; StayAt HomeMother; Ragtime Cowgirl; ...
FALL IN to the FReeper Foxhole!
It's TreadHead Tuesday!
Good Morning Everyone
If you would like added to our ping list let us know.
5
posted on
04/13/2004 12:03:14 AM PDT
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: snippy_about_it
Good Morning Snippy.
6
posted on
04/13/2004 12:06:40 AM PDT
by
SAMWolf
(A cat will assume the shape of the container it is packed into.)
To: SAMWolf
Good night Sam.
7
posted on
04/13/2004 12:12:08 AM PDT
by
snippy_about_it
(Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; JulieRNR21; Vets_Husband_and_Wife; Cinnamon Girl; Alamo-Girl; Bigg Red; ..
Hiya Sam and Snippy .... sorry I haven't been around to bump these threads lately ... but my crappy dialup is getting worse and worse ..... I need to do something about that .... but here's a big BUMP up for you .... and on your thread re: LSTs a few days ago .... here's a pic of the LST I served on in the early 70s ... :)
for information on the USS FRESNO (LST-1182), click here.
I joined her crew in the spring of 1970, and made 3 combat cruises to Viet Nam on her in 70-71.
Ah, memories ..... :)
±
"The Era of Osama lasted about an hour, from the time the first plane hit the tower to the moment the General Militia of Flight 93 reported for duty."
Toward FREEDOM
8
posted on
04/13/2004 12:47:24 AM PDT
by
Neil E. Wright
(An oath is FOREVER)
To: SAMWolf
The Germans' dividing line between tank destroyer and assault gun could be pretty flexible, as with the German reworked Czech Model 38 tanks turned into Hetzer tank destroyers. Since they used the same 75mm gun and
saukopf gun mantlet as the later Stug III and Stug IV vehicles, and the same remotely-operated MG34 on the roof as some of the other turretless vehicles, it was inevitable that the vehicles would be used in a fashion similar to that provem sucessful by the other vehicles. And even the German military authorities seemed to be ambivilent about the exact role and designation of the vehicle, originally called
Leichtes Sturmgeschütz 38(t), then
Panzerjäger 38 für 7.5cm Pak 39 L/48 and finally
Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer Indeed, the Hetzer was so successful that some were sold to Switzerland, and after the war, the Swiss not only took as many of the surviving 2584 Hetzer vehicles produced as could be obtained into their army, but continued manufacture of the long-lived vehicles. Many soldier on today with WWII reenactors and museums.
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Hetzer |
|
GENERAL DATA |
Formal Designation |
Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer (Panzerjäger 38(t)) für 7.5cm PaK39 |
Manufacturer(s) |
BMM, Skoda |
Production Quantity |
2584 |
Production Period |
Apr. 1944-May 1945 |
Type |
Tank Destroyer |
Crew |
4 |
Length /hull (m) |
6.27/4.87 |
Barrel Overhang (m) |
1.40 |
Width (m) |
2.63 |
Height (m) |
2.17 |
Combat Weight (kg) |
15750 |
Radio |
FuG5 and FuG Spr f |
FIREPOWER |
Primary Armament |
75mm PaK39 L/48 |
Ammunition Carried |
41 |
Traverse (degrees) |
Manual (5° L, 11° R) |
Elevation (degrees) |
-6° to +12° |
Traverse speed (360°) |
- |
Sight |
SflZF1a |
Secondary Armament |
1 x 7.92 MG34 or MG42 (roof mount) |
Ammunition Carried |
1200 |
MOBILITY CHARACTERISTICS |
Engine Make & Model |
Praga EPA AC/2 |
No. of Links/Track |
96 |
Type & Displacement |
Liquid, L6, 7.8 liters |
Track Width |
35cm |
Horsepower (Gross) |
158hp@2600rpm |
Track Ground Contact |
269cm |
Power/Weight Ratio |
10.0 hp/t |
Ground Pressure |
11.4 psi |
Gearbox |
5 forward, 1 reverse |
Ground Clearance (m) |
0.41 |
Fuel |
Gasoline (Petrol) |
Turning Radius (m) |
4.5 |
Range on/off road (km) |
178/97 |
Gradient (deg.) |
25°-37° |
Mileage (liters/100km) |
217 on/398 off road |
Vertical Obstacle (m) |
0.65 |
Fuel Capacity (liters) |
386 |
Fording (m) |
0.89 |
Speed on/off road |
42/16 km/h |
Trench Crossing (m) |
1.31 |
ARMOR PROTECTION |
Armor Detail |
Front |
Side |
Rear |
Top/Bottom |
Hull |
60mm@50° |
20mm@75° |
20mm@75° |
10mm@0° |
Superstructure |
60mm@30° |
20mm@50° |
8mm@20° |
8mm@0° |
Mantlet |
60mm@Saukopf. |
- |
- |
- |
9
posted on
04/13/2004 1:14:04 AM PDT
by
archy
(The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
To: SAMWolf
Notice this machine, StuG. III Ausf. G is only about nine feet eight inches wide. It has 300 hp for 23.9 tons weight, or about twelve and a half horse power per ton. For it's day it is very heavily armored, especially frontally.
To me, this shows the difference between peacetime and wartime designs. Peacetime designs look "cool", are fast, powerful, and fun to drive, have a bunch of the latest innovations, great sights, weak guns, and terrible armor. (Read "Stryker".) Wartime designs are slow, heavily armed, heavily armored, and simple. No frills. The same thing is true of small arms design.
A US Abrams with 12.5 hp/ton would have 850 horsepower instead of well more than 1,500.
The SturmGeshuetz is wonderfully practical. I have no idea why they are not popular today unless it is a mere matter of ego.
10
posted on
04/13/2004 1:17:32 AM PDT
by
Iris7
(If "Iris7" upsets or intrigues you, see my Freeper home page for a nice explanatory essay.)
To: archy
Good morning, archy,
Notice that the excellent Hetzer weighed 17.3 US tons with 158 hp, or just over nine horse power per ton. My previous post points to the reduction of power/weight ratio as the war progressed and designs became more practical.
You pointed out to me once that the StG 44 was a very heavy beast, almost 13 lb. empty, and fired a low powered cartridge; I would say (this is not aimed at you, archy, but for other readers) that this made the weapon more useful, not less, because it is easier to get hits with (especially for the beginner and the frightened). The great weight of the Thompson is a similar advantage. Another example is the UZI, which is very heavy compared to the peace time Ingram (MAC-10).
11
posted on
04/13/2004 1:39:25 AM PDT
by
Iris7
(If "Iris7" upsets or intrigues you, see my Freeper home page for a nice explanatory essay.)
To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Darksheare; Johnny Gage; Light Speed; Samwise; ...
Good morning to all at the Foxhole! To all our military men and women, past and present, and to our allies who stand with us,
THANK YOU!
12
posted on
04/13/2004 2:28:00 AM PDT
by
radu
(May God watch over our troops and keep them safe)
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.
FA-22 Raptor
13
posted on
04/13/2004 2:40:09 AM PDT
by
Aeronaut
(If we are not 'one nation under God,' what are we?)
To: Iris7
Peacetime designs look "cool", are fast, powerful, and fun to drive, have a bunch of the latest innovations, great sights, weak guns, and terrible armor. (Read "Stryker".)I just found out that my first assignment will be as a Stryker Brigade platoon leader. I just hope they're not the POS's that I keep hearing they are. Of course, I'm used to the Bradley, so almost anything is an improvement...
14
posted on
04/13/2004 3:07:37 AM PDT
by
Future Snake Eater
("Oh boy, I can't wait to eat that monkey!"--Abe Simpson)
To: snippy_about_it
Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.
For those using Windows. Today's the day Microsoft sends down their April security bulleteins. Be sure to download those when you can.
15
posted on
04/13/2004 3:10:15 AM PDT
by
E.G.C.
To: E.G.C.; All
Good morning, Foxholers!
16
posted on
04/13/2004 4:41:43 AM PDT
by
Samwise
(The day may come when the courage of men fails...but it is not this day....This day we fight!)
To: Iris7
Notice that the excellent Hetzer weighed 17.3 US tons with 158 hp, or just over nine horse power per ton. My previous post points to the reduction of power/weight ratio as the war progressed and designs became more practical. Very true, though that's both in part the result of existing designs being upgunned with heavier main armament, which also requires larger ammunition, thus fewer rounds carried, which effects not only HP/ton, but also the ground pressure of the tracks, which can then require wider tracks to maintain the same characteristics of handling, requiring newer wider and heavier drive and idler sprocket, road wheels and sopport rollers, stepping on that HP/weight ratio again. Time for a new engine!
And note that as Diesel engines replace gasoline engines, improving crew survivability and range, horsepower may drop for an equivalent-sized engine- the gasoline engine may well have a higher HP output.
You pointed out to me once that the StG 44 was a very heavy beast, almost 13 lb. empty, and fired a low powered cartridge; I would say (this is not aimed at you, archy, but for other readers) that this made the weapon more useful, not less, because it is easier to get hits with (especially for the beginner and the frightened).
Just so, though long-suffering Infantrymen may feel otherwise. And the added weight can reduce the rifle's usefulness as a bayonet fighting platform, just as the Germans dropped the bayonet mount of the MKb42(H) and MKb 42(W) prototypes when the production models of the MP43 and MP44 were introduced. Presumably an extra loaded magazine was thought to be more useful than a stabber. But BTW, it was the Stg44, not the MP40, that was the standard weapon carried for crew defence aboard the Hetzer and some Stugs.
The great weight of the Thompson is a similar advantage. Another example is the UZI, which is very heavy compared to the peace time Ingram (MAC-10).
Well, the Uzi weighs in loaded [25 round mag] at 9 pounds; actually heavier than a loaded M16A1 rifle. The 9mm Ingram M10 at 6.5 empty or about 7 pounds loaded [32 rds]- but the M10 is a good deal shorter than an Uzi, both being shorter than the full-length 10.5 pound wooden-stocked and machined Thompson. The weight and controlability of a SMG is a lot mor a function of the ammunition carried, and it's the balance, either with the magazine in the firing hand as on the Ingram or M10, between both hands on the Tommy. The M10 actually feels heavier, what with all the weight coming in such a short package, just above the user's hand.
17
posted on
04/13/2004 5:01:16 AM PDT
by
archy
(The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
To: All
Good Morning!
I am probably very late coming to the ball on this one, but on Tuesday mornings from 7:00 to 8:00 am, the History Channel presents Civil War Journal. This morning, it was about JEB Stuart.
I don't know if this is the only time it is on. When I put it on my DVR schedule, it says that it is a series.
I was able to catch just a few minutes before I left for work... but I was able to catch "If You Want To Have a Good Time - Jine the Calvary."
PS - Been rewatching Band of Brothers on History Channel as well. That is one fine miniseries.
18
posted on
04/13/2004 5:03:09 AM PDT
by
carton253
(I don't do nuance)
To: SAMWolf
On this Day In History
Birthdates which occurred on April 13:
1519 Catherine de Médici Queen of Spain/daughter of Henry II
1648 Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Mothe-Guyon French mystic (quiétisme)
1732 Frederick Lord North (C) British PM (1770-82)
1743 Thomas Jefferson Shadwell VA, (D-R) 3rd US President (1801-09)
1756 Louis H J Condé French prince
1771 Richard Trevithick Illogan Cornwall England, inventor (steam locomotive)
1822 Leroy Augustus Stafford Brigadier General (Confederate Army), died in 1864
1822 William Stephen Walker Brigadier General (Confederate Army), died in 1899
1828 Joseph B Lightfoot English theologist/bishop of Durham
1832 James Wimshurst British designer/inventor (electricstatic generator)
1852 Frank W Woolworth 5¢ & 10¢ King (Woolworths)
1892 Arthur Harris Cheltenham, Marshal of the RAF
1892 Robert A Watson-Watt England, physicist (radar)
1899 Alfred Moser Butts game inventor (Scrabble)
1902 Philippe de Rothschild Paris France, manager (Bordeaux Vineyard)
1906 Samuel Beckett Irish playwright (Waiting for Godot/Nobel 1969)
1907 Harold Stassen West St Paul MN, (Governor-Republican-MN) perennial presidential candidate
1909 Eudora Welty Jackson MS, novelist (Optimist's Daughter-Pulitzer 1973)
1919 Howard Keel [Harry Clifford Leek] Gillespie IL, actor/singer (7 Brides for 7 Brothers, Kiss Me Kate)
1919 Madalyn Murray O'Hair American atheist (opppsed prayer in school)
1926 Don [James Yarmy] Adams New York NY, actor/comedian (Maxwell Smart-Get Smart)
1935 Erich von Däniken author/nutcase (Chariots of the Gods)
1935 Lyle Waggoner Kansas City KS, actor (Carol Burnett Show, Wonder Woman)
1939 Paul Sorvino Brookyn NY, stage/screen actor, (Law and Order, Reds, Goodfellas, A Touch of Class, That Championship Season, An American Millionaire, The Mating Dance, Skyscraper, King Lear)
1944 Jack Casady Washington DC, rock bassist (Hot Tuna, Jefferson Airplane)
1945 Lowell George rock vocalist/guitarist (Little Feat-Time is a Hero)
1945 Tony Dow Hollywood CA, actor (Wally-Leave it to Beaver)
1948 Kathleen Battle US soprano (Tannhäuser)
1950 Ron Perlman Bronx NY, actor (Quest for Fire, Beauty & the Beast)
1951 Peter Davison actor (Dr Who, Sink or Swim, Fiddlers Three)
1963 Gary Kimovich Kasparov USSR, world chess champion (1985- )
1968 Tami Lyn Jameson Minneapolis MN, team handball goalie/twin sister of Toni (Olympics-92, 96)
1968 Toni Lee Jameson Minneapolis MN, team handball back court/twin sister of Tami (Olympics-96)
1970 Rick Schroder Staten Island NY, actor (Ricky-Silver Spoons, Champ, Earthling)
1978 Grace Murray Tubbs Miss Montana Teen-USA (1996)
Deaths which occurred on April 13:
1517 Tuman Bey last Mamelukken sultan of Egypt, hanged
1638 Henri II duke of Rohan-Gié, French hugenot leader, dies at 58
1904 Vasili Vereshtshagin Russian painter(War & Peace), dies
1941 Annie Jump Cannon US astronomer (Henry Draper catalogues), dies at 77
1942 Henk Sneevliet leader of Dutch RSAP/Spartacus, executed at 58
1967 Luis Somoza Debayle President of Nicaragua (1956-63), dies at 44
1978 Paul McGrath actor (The Witness, No Time for Love), dies at 74
1984 Christopher Wilder FBI's "most wanted man", accidentally kills self
1994 Donald Benjamin Harden archaeologist, dies at 92
1994 Taleb Ali al-Suheil Iran sheik, murdered in Lebanon at 64
1995 Edward Firth Henderson arabist, dies at 77
1996 James "Jimmy the Gent" Burke criminal, dies at 64
Reported: MISSING in ACTION
1966 MAPE JOHN CLEMENT---DUBLIN CA.
[REMAINS IDENTIFIED 03/17/99]
1968 STISCHER WALTER MORRIS---SAN ANTONIO TX.
[03/28/73 RELEASED BY PL (LAOS), ALIVE AND WELL 98]
1969 PIERSON WILLIAM C.---MADISON WI.
1972 CHRISTENSEN JOHN MICHAEL---OGDEN UT.
[RADIO CONTACT LOST]
1972 LEET DAVID LAVERETT---KENOSHA WI.
POW / MIA Data & Bios supplied by
the P.O.W. NETWORK. Skidmore, MO. USA.
On this day...
0837 Best view of Halley's Comet in 2000 years
0989 Battle at Abydos Byzantine emperor Basilius II beats Bardas Phocas
1055 Bishop Gebhard van Eichstätt named Pope Victor II
1111 Pope Paschalis II crowns Roman catholics-German king Hendrik II
1241 Battle at Theiss Mongols beat Hungarian King Béla IV
1346 Pope Clemens VI declares German emperor Louis of Bavaria, envoy
1367 Battle at Nájera Spain Castilië & England beat Aragón & France
1556 Portuguese Marranos who revert back to Judaism burned by order of Pope
1598 Edict of Nantes grants political rights to French Huguenots
1668 John Dryden (36) becomes 1st English poet laureate
1741 Dutch people protest bad quality of bread
1742 George Frideric Händel's "Messiah" performed for 1st time (Dublin)
1796 1st elephant arrives in US from Bengal India
1808 William Henry Lane ("Juda") perfects the tap dance
1829 English Emancipation Act grants freedom of religion to Catholics
1842 Lord Rosse successfully casts 72" (183-cm) mirror for a telescope
1860 1st Pony Express reaches Sacramento CA
1861 After 34 hours of bombardment, Fort Sumter surrenders to Confederates
1863 Battle of Irish Bend LA (Fort Bisland)
1863 Hospital for Ruptured & Crippled in New York is 1st orthopedic hospital
1865 Battle of Raleigh NC
1869 Steam power brake patented (George Westinghouse)
1870 Metropolitan Museum of Art forms in NYC
1873 Colfax Massacre in Grant Parish LA (60 blacks killed)
1882 Anti-Semitic League forms in Prussia
1883 Alfred Packer convicted of cannibalism
1902 JC Penney opens his 1st store in Kemmerer WY
1904 Congress authorizes Lewis & Clark Expo $1 gold coin
1904 Battle at Oviumbo Africa Herero's chase away German army
1906 Mutiny on Portuguese battleships Dom Carlos & Vasco da Gama
1912 Royal Flying Corps forms (later RAF)
1918 Electrical fire kills 38 mental patients at Oklahoma State Hospital
1919 Amritsar Massacre - British Army fires on hundreds of Indian Nationalist rioters in India
1926 Bicyclists without bicycle-tax-stamp rounded up in Amsterdam
1933 1st flight over Mount Everest (Lord Clydesdale)
1934 4.7 million US families report receiving welfare payments
1939 W Saroyan's "My Heart's in the Highlands", premieres in NYC
1940 Cornelious Warmerdam becomes the 1st man to pole vault 15 feet, Berkeley CA
1940 2nd battle of Narvik-8 German destroyers, destroyed
1941 Heavy German assault on Tobruk
1941 Russian-Japan no-attack treaty goes into effect
1943 FDR dedicates Jefferson Memorial
1943 Nazi's discover mass grave of Polish officers near Katyn
1944 South Carolina rejects black suffrage
1945 Canadian army liberates Teuge & Assen Netherlands from Nazi's
1945 US marines conquer Minna Shima off Okinawa
1946 Belgian premier Acker proclaims wage & price freeze over
1946 Eddie Klepp, a white pitcher signed by defending Negro League champion Cleveland Buckeyes, is barred from field in Birmingham AL
1954 Robert Oppenheimer accused of being a communist
1955 20.33" (51.64 cm) of rainfall, Axis AL (state record)
1959 Vatican edict forbids Roman Catholics from voting for communists
1959 USAF launches Discoverer II into polar orbit
1960 France becomes the 4th nuclear nation exploding an A-Bomb in Sahara
1960 Transit 1B, 1st navigational satellite, placed in Earth orbit
1961 UN General Assembly condemns South Africa for apartheid
1962 Stan Musial scores his 1,869th run, a new National League record
1962 US steel industry forced to give up price increases
1963 Pete Rose triples for his 1st major league base hit
1963 Pittsburgh Pirate's Bob Friend balks 4 times in a game
1964 Ian D Smith becomes premier of Rhodesia
1965 Beatles record "Help"
1965 1st US Senate black page, Lawrence W Bradford Jr, 16, appointed by New York Senator Jacob Javits
1966 Pan Am places $525,000,000 order for 25 Boeing 747s
1972 1st baseball players' strike ends after 13 days
1975 Chad military coup by General Odingar
1975 Christian Falange kills 27 Palestinians, begins Lebanese civil war
1976 Federal Reserve begins issuing $2 bicentennial notes
1979 Longest doubles ping-pong match ends after 101 hours
1980 "Grease" closes at Broadhurst Theater NYC after 3,388 performances
1980 "TASS" denounced US boycott of the Moscow Summer Olympics
1981 Washington Post's Janet Cooke wins Pulitzer Prize for "Jimmy's World" (later admits story was a hoax and returns prize)
1984 Pete Rose becomes 1st National League to get get 4,000 hits in a career
1985 Ramiz Alia succeeds Enver Hoxha as party leader of Albania
1986 Pope John Paul II met Rome's Chief Rabbi Elio Toaff at Rome synagogue
1987 Portugal signs agreement to return Macau to China (in 1999)
1990 Final episode of Pat Sajak's late night TV show on CBS
1992 Great Chicago Flood - Chicago's underground tunnels flood
1992 Longest 2 undefeated baseball teams to meet (New York Yankees 5-0 vs Toronto Blue Jays 6-0); Yankees score 3 in top of 9th to win 5-2
1992 Nelson Mandela announces he will seek divorce from Winnie
1994 President guard at Kigali Rwanda, chops 1,200 church members to death
1994 Target date for Israeli complete withdrawal, doesn't occur
1997 1st time since 1961 that 2 doubleheaders are played in the same city - San Francisco Giants vs New York Mets & Oakland A's vs New York Yankees in New York
1997 "American Daughter" opens at Cort Theater NYC for 88 performances
1997 48th time opposing pitchers hit homeruns, Carlos Perez (Mon)/Darren Holmes
1997 Tiger Woods wins his first Major by winning the prestigious Masters Tournament
Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"
Thailand : Songkran Day-honors monks
India : Tamil New Year's Day
Alabama, Oklahoma : Thomas Jefferson's Birthday (1743)
Maryland : John Hanson Day
US : Huguenot Day (1598)
US : National Garden Week Week (Day 3)
National Anxiety Month
Religious Observances
Eighth Day of Passover
Easter Tuesday
Buddhist : New Year (Thailand)
Roman Catholic : Commemoration of St Hermenegild, martyr
Roman Catholic : Memorial of St Martin I, pope, martyr (optional)
Buddhist : Songkran Day; honors monks (Thailand)
France 1598, England 1829 : Religious Freedom Day
Jewish : Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Memorial Day) (Nisan 27, 5759 AM)
Religious History
1059 Pope Nicholas II decreed that future popes could be elected by cardinals only.
1598 The Edict of Nantes was promulgated by France's King Henry IV (of Navarre), granting his Huguenot (Protestant) subjects a large measure of religious freedom. (The Edict remained in effect for 87 years.)
1853 Loyola College in Baltimore was chartered under Roman Catholic auspices.
1939 Delegates from independent Baptist churches in Shafter, Oildale, Lamont and Taft organized the first association of Southern Baptists in California.
1948 At the Antioch Baptist Church of Portland, representatives of 15 local congregations organized the Baptist General Convention of Oregon-Washington, the first organization of its kind in the Pacific Northwest.
Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.
Thought for the day :
"In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular."
What a Difference 30 Years Makes...
1970: Trying to look like Marlon Brando or Elizabeth Taylor.
2000: Trying NOT to look like Marlon Brando or Elizabeth Taylor.
New State Slogans...
Texas: Si, Hablo Ingles
Male Language Patterns...
"I don't need to read the instructions," REALLY MEANS,
"I am perfectly capable of screwing it up without printed help."
Female Language Patterns...
"I'm not upset", REALLLY MEANS,
"Of course I'm upset, you moron"!
19
posted on
04/13/2004 5:46:59 AM PDT
by
Valin
(Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All
If you seek Him, He will be found by you. 1 Chronicles 28:9
To find God, we must be willing to seek Him.
20
posted on
04/13/2004 5:57:42 AM PDT
by
The Mayor
(Death separates us for a time; Christ will reunite us forever.)
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